Problem with camber settings.

[OliS]

In preparation for trackday season, I took my Trophy to get the tracking done today, which is all good, but their 4 wheel laser alignment system showed that I have -1.01 degrees of camber on the left front, and -0.24 on the right :?

I was told that this was not a great amount to be out, but is it?

I know the suspension on the Trophy is not camber adjustable, so if the amount of camber that my car is out by is significant, how can it be fixed :?:

 

[George K]

According to the dealer's data sheet the front settings are:
Camber: Negative 0.17' +/- 30'
Toe-out :0.25' +/- 17'

Mine came with 0.40' negative and 0.10' toe-out. For track work I intend to convert to 2.00' negative and probably 0.20' toe-out.

Your differences, if correct, are not the end of the world for a clockwise circuit. What you need to be sure of is that the floor was precisely level scross the car, otherwise you can easily get the sort discrepancy that you describe. In fact the average of your settings is about the same as mine.

I know someone who has recently taken his car to a Clio Challenge specialist, where the front was changed to the settings that I mention above and they also used shims to adjust the back to 1.30' negative (although mine seems to be at that already, c/w 0.20' toe-in) and his is stunned by the extra front end grip.

If you go onto the tirerack website in the states you will see that most trackday tyre manufacturers recommend at leat 2.00 negatve and shaving the tread down to 3mm. I only do sprints and hillclimbs so heat build up is not a problem - in fact I could do with more heat!

FYI the Challenge cars run over 3.30' f & r, which fits in with michelin's recommendations for touring cars,

Will be very interested in any feedback

 

[oliie]

Very interesting... I would love to know where I can go in/near London to check what my car currently is running at, and have someone adjust accordingly (if at all possible)...

O.

 

[OliS]

Thanks for the information George, greatly appreciated!

Think I will get in contact with - http://www.aurok.com/

These guys have done work for the Clio Cup cars in the past and my mate got them to supply and fit some fast road/track suspension for his 205, which handles superbly.

They are located in Hampshire, which would only be a blast down the A3 for you Oliie, so I'll let you know how I get on with them. Might be a busy time of year for them, getting cars ready for racing in the spring.

 

[ChrisB]

Very handy info guys, thanks a lot !

 

[OliS]

George - Been thinking about this, what do you feel would be the best set up for fast road and occaisional trackday use? Is the -2.0' front, -1.3' rear setup that you mention suitable for road use? What are the downsides of running increased camber, is tyre wear affected?

I'll go to another place and see if there is there really is this mismatch across the front axle, or if it was just an issue with the equipment used first time out. If the mismatch is still there, are these shims/camber bolts my only solution to getting the camber to match?

 

[mr StinKa gob]

George - Been thinking about this, what do you feel would be the best set up for fast road and occaisional trackday use? Is the -2.0' front, -1.3' rear setup that you mention suitable for road use? What are the downsides of running increased camber, is tyre wear affected?

I'll go to another place and see if there is there really is this mismatch across the front axle, or if it was just an issue with the equipment used first time out. If the mismatch is still there, are these shims/camber bolts my only solution to getting the camber to match?

For road and occassional track use here is my advice:

LEAVE IT ALONE

You cant adjust anything easily so might as well use a good compremise set up, which Renault have already provided you with :wink:

 

[methody]

camber

i noticed the car was pulling slightly to the left and i took it to a garage who lazer aligned the front wheels i then took it out it was just the same and i took it back he changed the front and back wheels around , still the same , any ideas........

 

[ChrisB]

For road and occassional track use here is my advice:

LEAVE IT ALONE

You cant adjust anything easily so might as well use a good compremise set up, which Renault have already provided you with :wink:

Even when this "good compromise" is -0.24 one side and -1.01 the other ???

 

[mr StinKa gob]

TBH, i bet if you take your springs off and measure them, they will be different lengths and different poundages. I bet if you take your wishbones off, they are different weights. I bet if you measured your dampers they have different bump and rebound settings. This is a 15k reno. Its cheap for a reason. That reason is poor build quality and bad manufacturing practice (leading to large tolerances).

If this worries you buy Japanese. You cant have a cheap, and well built car. Take your choice and pay your money.

If you know the renault settings, and they are outside the accepted tolerances, i personally would take the car to them (on a trailer), give them the keys and say mend it (along with a letter from a solicitor stating the car is outside the stated manufacturing tolerance, and therefore dangerous for its intended purpose). Tell them you are in contact with trading standards and have recieved legal advice. My guess is the car will be fixed within a week and be set up correctly.

 

[Maverick]

Re: camber

i noticed the car was pulling slightly to the left and i took it to a garage who lazer aligned the front wheels i then took it out it was just the same and i took it back he changed the front and back wheels around , still the same , any ideas........

The RS cars (or any other car to a greater or lesser extent) will be affected by the camber of the road which will naturally drift you to the left anyway, on most roads. Very few roads are truly flat. It's so the water runs off you see. lol

 

[OliS]

For road and occassional track use here is my advice:

LEAVE IT ALONE

You cant adjust anything easily so might as well use a good compremise set up, which Renault have already provided you with :wink:

Even when this "good compromise" is -0.24 one side and -1.01 the other ???

As ChrisB has implied in his post, I am not happy to leave my camber settings as they are. I am going to get the camber checked out again and if there is still this camber mismatch I am going to speak to Aurok about what I can do to resolve the issue.

KS - This may be a £15k Reno, however the springs and dampers are not your usual OEM goods. I am sure that Sachs who manufacture the dampers would have been working within much tighter tolerances than the usual mass manufactured parts, for example the ones fitted to a factory std Williams :wink:
The inequalities that exist in spring length/poundage or damper bound/rebound in our Sachs units would be within the tolerances agreed by Sachs and R'sport when the units were desinged, I imagine that these inequalities would be so negligable that they would have no effect on the way that a car would handle.

In the same way, if the difference in my front camber settings does exist, it is only a negligiable difference and it probably does not have a great effect on handling or tyre wear, however I am a pretty anal when it comes to my Trophy and if there is a way that I can optimise the way the car performs then I am surely intitled to investigate the possiblities.

I am not going to take the car to Reno, as I would not expect them to care or be able to solve the difference in camber at the front. Solictor's and stuff like that is way to much hassle, I may as well take my car to a specialist who actually cares and knows about what they are doing.

What I really need to find out now what exactly the camber bolts actually are and do, and how they are fixed to the car :?:

I did a search in this forum and read a post from a wise man who had heard about 16v track cars running these for year without any problems - http://cliotrophy.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91 :wink: :lol:

 

[George K]

Olis. As my rear camber came as standard at 1.30', I can not see any reason against using that as a benchmark - the rear end is so lightly loaded that tyre wear will not be an issue. A conservative setting would be to make sure it has a little toe-in - again the standard setting on mine of 0.20' is fine. For outright track use may peoope actually run toe-out, but frankly it is too hairy for everyday use.

At the front 2.00 negative may aggravate tyre wear a bit, but as when you are leaning on it, there will be a tendency to wear the outside, more camber will tend to compensate. My road car is very nose heavy diesel and at 1.30' (my modifed setting) has very even wear, running at 0.00 toe.

I would certainly go for 1.30 - 2.00 and 0.00 - 0.20' toe-out. You can adjust by using proprietory camber bolts - although I will probably extend the upper of the two bolts holes in the strut where it is connected to the hub carrier by 2 mm, as I am more comfortable with maintaining the effective diameter of the bolts. Camber bolts have the effect of reducing the operative diameter from 14 mm to 12mm. One of our analytical engineers ran a check and reckoned that to maintain the clamping load, this does move it quite a lot further up the tensile failure curve.

On a car as relatively soft as the Trophy (for instance the Challenge cars runs front springs about 5 times stiffer), and recognising that it uses good quality springs, it is highly unlikely that there will be any corner weighting issues, so I would see such concerns as a complete red herring, unless the car has been badly damaged.

Baesd on experience with both road and trackcars, I do believe that accurate geometry will always pay off, so am sure it is worth pursuing.

Hope this is of some help

 

[mr StinKa gob]

For road and occassional track use here is my advice:

LEAVE IT ALONE

You cant adjust anything easily so might as well use a good compremise set up, which Renault have already provided you with :wink:

Even when this "good compromise" is -0.24 one side and -1.01 the other ???

As ChrisB has implied in his post, I am not happy to leave my camber settings as they are. I am going to get the camber checked out again and if there is still this camber mismatch I am going to speak to Aurok about what I can do to resolve the issue.

KS - This may be a £15k Reno, however the springs and dampers are not your usual OEM goods. I am sure that Sachs who manufacture the dampers would have been working within much tighter tolerances than the usual mass manufactured parts, for example the ones fitted to a factory std Williams :wink:
The inequalities that exist in spring length/poundage or damper bound/rebound in our Sachs units would be within the tolerances agreed by Sachs and R'sport when the units were desinged, I imagine that these inequalities would be so negligable that they would have no effect on the way that a car would handle.

In the same way, if the difference in my front camber settings does exist, it is only a negligiable difference and it probably does not have a great effect on handling or tyre wear, however I am a pretty anal when it comes to my Trophy and if there is a way that I can optimise the way the car performs then I am surely intitled to investigate the possiblities.

I am not going to take the car to Reno, as I would not expect them to care or be able to solve the difference in camber at the front. Solictor's and stuff like that is way to much hassle, I may as well take my car to a specialist who actually cares and knows about what they are doing.

What I really need to find out now what exactly the camber bolts actually are and do, and how they are fixed to the car :?:

I did a search in this forum and read a post from a wise man who had heard about 16v track cars running these for year without any problems - http://cliotrophy.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91 :wink: :lol:

Sachs tolerances would be set by reno and would therefore follow normal reno manufacturing practice. Dont kid yourself they will have better tolerances than williams dampers than are in fact made by De Carbon, a rival damper company. There is no evidence to suggest that Sachs have better build tolerances than de carbon. Although i can see yuove nicely been brain washed into thinking you have some kind of 'super' damper :roll:

Listen, ill try and make it easy for you to understand. Nick Hill took a numbr of crank shafts from 172 cars. He weighed them. There was a 6lb difference between the heaviest and lightest. Thats a massive amount on a rotating mass. Then he measured the manifolds. Again there was a massive difference, the size varying by cm's in some cases.

Do you think that the suspension tolerances are any better? If you do you are kidding yourself. You bought a cheap car, if you start measuring everything you are just opening a whole can of worms for yourself.

 

[OliS]

Sachs tolerances would be set by reno and would therefore follow normal reno manufacturing practice. Dont kid yourself they will have better tolerances than williams dampers than are in fact made by De Carbon, a rival damper company. There is no evidence to suggest that Sachs have better build tolerances than de carbon. Although i can see yuove nicely been brain washed into thinking you have some kind of 'super' damper :roll:

Listen, ill try and make it easy for you to understand. Nick Hill took a numbr of crank shafts from 172 cars. He weighed them. There was a 6lb difference between the heaviest and lightest. Thats a massive amount on a rotating mass. Then he measured the manifolds. Again there was a massive difference, the size varying by cm's in some cases.

Do you think that the suspension tolerances are any better? If you do you are kidding yourself. You bought a cheap car, if you start measuring everything you are just opening a whole can of worms for yourself.

:shock: You are kidding right? Sachs or De Carbon, I know which one's I would choose everytime - Sachs, suppliers of race suspension for some of the world's top motorsport teams or De Carbon suppliers of passenger car suspension and aftermarket 'look low and handle sh!t' kits!

Thanks for making it easy for me, now I'll try to make it easy for you. I understand that some OEM parts show massive differences, such as the crank weight, but the dampers on the Trophy are not OEM parts.

Yes I did buy a cheap car, but the dampers fitted to my car certainly aren't cheap

George - Thanks again for the info. I am going to speak to Aurok about the possibilities, and see what they can add to the subject. I'll let you know what they advise.

 

[mr StinKa gob]

Sachs tolerances would be set by reno and would therefore follow normal reno manufacturing practice. Dont kid yourself they will have better tolerances than williams dampers than are in fact made by De Carbon, a rival damper company. There is no evidence to suggest that Sachs have better build tolerances than de carbon. Although i can see yuove nicely been brain washed into thinking you have some kind of 'super' damper :roll:

Listen, ill try and make it easy for you to understand. Nick Hill took a numbr of crank shafts from 172 cars. He weighed them. There was a 6lb difference between the heaviest and lightest. Thats a massive amount on a rotating mass. Then he measured the manifolds. Again there was a massive difference, the size varying by cm's in some cases.

Do you think that the suspension tolerances are any better? If you do you are kidding yourself. You bought a cheap car, if you start measuring everything you are just opening a whole can of worms for yourself.

:shock: You are kidding right? Sachs or De Carbon, I know which one's I would choose everytime - Sachs, suppliers of race suspension for some of the world's top motorsport teams or De Carbon suppliers of passenger car suspension and aftermarket 'look low and handle sh!t' kits!

Thanks for making it easy for me, now I'll try to make it easy for you. I understand that some OEM parts show massive differences, such as the crank weight, but the dampers on the Trophy are not OEM parts.

Yes I did buy a cheap car, but the dampers fitted to my car certainly aren't cheap

George - Thanks again for the info. I am going to speak to Aurok about the possibilities, and see what they can add to the subject. I'll let you know what they advise.

Take the piss all you want and make wild claims about your dampers being better blah blah blah, but you look pretty stupid, because at the end of the day the camber on my road williams is spot on, and yours resemebles a plate of spaghetti.

Added to that is the fact that my track car has 'proper' adjustable leda remote resevoir dampers, not the crappy non adjustable piggy back 'Fisherprice' dampers on your trophy.

Oh and to make you look more stupid Sachs will have to be oem as it supplies the original parts for the trophy from the factory.

And to add insult to injury the irony is that deCarbon invented the 'modern' damper (in 1947 i think), the same priciples that Sachs uses today.

Enjoy your well set up car...pmsl. Just make sure you book track days on ovals. I recommend Rockingham

Im sure your dampers will be a benefit to you there.

 

[ChrisB]

Interesting posts, OliS and George, thanks. I'll check the alignment on mine in the next few weeks and have things tweaked a bit.

 

[methody]

King stromba i have only just come onto this forum having just bought a trophy I have a sagaris , a evo fq 400 and a couple of other toys and the trophy is just as enjoyable to blast around in as any. But my point is that you sound like a right wanker who probably couldnt afford a trophy anyway.

 

[Day]

But my point is that you sound like a right ****** who probably couldnt afford a trophy anyway.

I dissagree with that comment - he could afford one.

 

[OliS]

Take the **** all you want and make wild claims about your dampers being better blah blah blah, but you look pretty stupid, because at the end of the day the camber on my road williams is spot on, and yours resemebles a plate of spaghetti.

Added to that is the fact that my track car has 'proper' adjustable leda remote resevoir dampers, not the crappy non adjustable piggy back 'Fisherprice' dampers on your trophy.

Oh and to make you look more stupid Sachs will have to be oem as it supplies the original parts for the trophy from the factory.

And to add insult to injury the irony is that deCarbon invented the 'modern' damper (in 1947 i think), the same priciples that Sachs uses today.

Enjoy your well set up car...pmsl. Just make sure you book track days on ovals. I recommend Rockingham

Im sure your dampers will be a benefit to you there.

Alright lets end this here, we could pick at each others post and turn this into another 5 page slagging match or we can just agree to have different views on the qualities of the Trophy's dampers.

As you point out I was only taking the mickey, don't think there was any need to say that I was stupid, that is unless you were just taking the mickey yourself :?: