How's the suspension on UK roads?

[Rick C196]

Hi all,

I currently drive a DC5 which I'll shortly be selling. One of my reasons for selling is the suspension which, though wonderful on smooth roads, is an absolute nightmare on my daily commute due to the quality of the roads near me. After 18months of ownership I'm ready to move on.

I drove a 306 Rallye before the DC5 which in retrospect had brilliantly judged suspension.

Could anyone enlighten me as to whether its worth a test drive or is the suspension likely as hard as the DC5's?

 

[George K]

Having gone from the Trophy to a DC5 (facelift), there is very little in it. The Trophy is marginally more compliant, but the DC5 compensates by a better seat and far better driving position. In terms of handling the Trophy is, in standard from, much more predictable and less of a handful on cold tyres. If you are interested I have gone to self specified bespoke coil overs and in so doing understood the shortcomings of the DC5.

 

[Rick C196]

Yeah I know everybody recommends changing the suspension on the DC5 but that's not a route I want to go down. Like I said that's not the only reason I'm selling.

I'm actually considering an S2000 which would probably be a good choice for me but I'd like to have a look at a Trophy as I've always fancied one.

 

[hoolio]

EDIT; the forum decided to juggle my post down so no longer relevant.

 

[j333evo]

It's very interesting you mention the 306. I recently read an article on Peugeot, and there was a very interesting insight from the now head of Ford chassis development who stated that back when the 306 and 406 were introduced they were considered the state of the art in terms of chassis development.

One of the main reasons for this was Peugeot used to manufacturer all it's own dampers and springs, and as such had very tight tolerances on them. All OEM manufacturers have a tolerance of 10% on a pair of dampers, Ford have recently paid a huge sum of money to get tis down to 5%, but this is still not as good as Peugeot used to make there's.

Back in the day Ford modified some 406 dampers and springs to fit the then Mondeo, and supposedly it totally transformed it from a very competent car, to a very good one.

Many think one of the reasons (there are lots) that Peugeot has lost it's MO-JO is that it no longer makes its own dampers, but buys in from OEM manufacturers like everyone else does and this means it's chassis no longer sing making them no better than anything else on the road.

I don't think many modern cars really have a right balance between ride comfort and road holding like the old 306 GTi6 and Rallyes did.

Sorry a bit off topic, but I find the Clio pretty good, though maybe not as comfortable as my old Celica GT4 which ran on OEM KYB gas dampers and Tein springs with TRD uprated rubber top mounts, it was such a pleasurable car to drive.

 

[George K]

The problem with the DC5 is that it has viciously rising rate rear springs (multiple of 2.5:1)and harsh damper settings to sort of match. Totally agree with comments about damper quality - it is also much cheaper not to make dampers with high and low speed valving, so they tend to be a compromise. I had a Subaru kegacy B4 (the JDM twin turbo) which came as standard with top quality Bilsteins - ride was better than my Merc and the roll and pitch damping was outstanding - springs rates were relatively soft!

Cheapest thing to do on a DC5 is probably to fit Konis on the rear and run them full soft, or even get then modified with larger bleed ports - back to Paul Drake! If I were just setting mine up for the road I would fit Eibachs and Konis on the rear - plus of course some adjustments to the geometry. I have found tp of 28/26 fine for general use (in testing on a tight circuit ended up at 32/25, but that is a bit extreme, and was before changing to coil overs).

 

[Gordon]

Many think one of the reasons (there are lots) that Peugeot has lost it's MO-JO is that it no longer makes its own dampers, but buys in from OEM manufacturers like everyone else does and this means it's chassis no longer sing making them no better than anything else on the road.

So would you say that if I went to purchase some OEM dampers from Peugeot, to keep my MK1 106 Rallye in total original condition, that the dampers would now be out by a factor of 10% ish from those fitted prior to Peugeot's drive toward outsourcing? Logically, I presume they would have to be, unless there is a mountain of historic parts from 1995 knocking about. Sadly unlikely.

If so that is a real bummer. The Rallye is one of the most composed, fun, rewarding, compliant (in the damping) and compelling cars I've driven. Having not driven it for many months, and stepping from the T into the Rallye about a year ago, was quite something. Very different in power of course, but the Rallye's driving position and the communication through all the controls was just wonderful. Best 150 mile trip I've ever had to put a car in storage.

The 306GTi6 and Rallye were superb too. Although didn't own one.

 

[murcod]

I used to own (from new) a 306 S16, compared to my 182 Cup I would say the ride was a lot more "absorbent". I've never been in a Trophy - we never got them here- but with my Cup I've downsized the rim size to 15" with 205/50R15 tyres and that has noticeably improved the ride. There's less in the way of noise or thumping over road ruts transmitted into the cabin.

(I live in Australia and some of our roads are shocking....)

 

[j333evo]

So would you say that if I went to purchase some OEM dampers from Peugeot, to keep my MK1 106 Rallye in total original condition, that the dampers would now be out by a factor of 10% ish from those fitted prior to Peugeot's drive toward outsourcing? Logically, I presume they would have to be, unless there is a mountain of historic parts from 1995 knocking about. Sadly unlikely.

If so that is a real bummer. The Rallye is one of the most composed, fun, rewarding, compliant (in the damping) and compelling cars I've driven. Having not driven it for many months, and stepping from the T into the Rallye about a year ago, was quite something. Very different in power of course, but the Rallye's driving position and the communication through all the controls was just wonderful. Best 150 mile trip I've ever had to put a car in storage.

The 306GTi6 and Rallye was superb too. Although didn't own one.

I used to have a Series 1 106 Rallye in red, the reg ended in PUD so that's what the car was called rather than Pug. It was an excellent car, wish I still had it, just don't have room to keep any more cars. I fitted a beautiful MOMO Corse steering wheel, same as is fitted to integrale EVO2's as standard, had a nice Sparco gearknob, a 106 GTi spoiler as I always thought the rear looked very plain without it, and the spotlights from a 106 XSi which had same front bumper removing the blanks, this was done through necessity after driving down the A34 very late at night quickly on a return journey from Glasgow to Bournemouth and I think it was a small rabbit ran out and I hit it and it went straight through one of the blanks smashing it to pieces. I wired it into a genuine Peugeot spot light switch replacing the blank on the dash board, only cost about £5 from Peugeot which I remembered being surprised at. Oh and it had a genuine Peugeot Sport Group N exhaust system, it gave an incredible rip as you went through the rev range. Everything else was as it left the factory including the Michelin steel wheels and Rallye decals.

As for the dampers, I really don't know, given age of the car there is a small chance that the original dampers are still available as when not used they generally stay in as new condition for a very long time. But as the car is over 10 years old the manufacturer has no responsibility to keep parts any more so it could be that any you get now are outsourced to an OEM manufacturer.

 

[hoolio]

So would you say that if I went to purchase some OEM dampers from Peugeot, to keep my MK1 106 Rallye in total original condition, that the dampers would now be out by a factor of 10% ish from those fitted prior to Peugeot's drive toward outsourcing? Logically, I presume they would have to be, unless there is a mountain of historic parts from 1995 knocking about. Sadly unlikely.

Until you ask the question you won't know. I've been pretty surprised at much is still available For the 5GTT from Renault and even those rare hard to find bits are generally to found tucked away under someones bed and even the hoarders will part for those bits to keep OE original and on the road.
A relevant example being the De Carbon dampers fitted to the Cup cars.

 

[Gordon]

I used to have a Series 1 106 Rallye in red, the reg ended in PUD so that's what the car was called rather than Pug. It was an excellent car, wish I still had it, just don't have room to keep any more cars. I fitted a beautiful MOMO Corse steering wheel, same as is fitted to integrale EVO2's as standard, had a nice Sparco gearknob, a 106 GTi spoiler as I always thought the rear looked very plain without it, and the spotlights from a 106 XSi which had same front bumper removing the blanks. I wired it into a genuine Peugeot spot light switch replacing the blank on the dash board, only cost about £5 from Peugeot which I remembered being surprised at. Oh and it had a genuine Peugeot Sport Group N exhaust system, it gave an incredible rip as you went through the rev range. Everything else was as it left the factory including the Michelin steel wheels and Rallye decals.

Sound like sensible modifications. I also have the OEM front fogs inserted in the blanks, with the original fog switch in the console. The blanks were sometimes used in tarmac rallying to channel cool air via ducts to the discs. I actually removed, what sounds like, the very same steering wheel you added! It's still hanging in the shed. Additionally I removed and sold some RSW five spoke alloy wheels that were on the car when I bought it; with 3000miles on the clock from the original owner. I put the steel wheels back on the owner had kept. He'd also added an OEM cigarette lighter to keep his mobile charged.

Like you I also thought it looked a little naked without the spoiler, but wanted to keep it original. I thought that as it was a Group N homologation special, if Peugeot didn't put one on originally, then it probably wasn't having much effect to the XSi and XS it was fitted to. Never changed anything else, apart from using Mintex performace pads when they were changed. Oh and adding the short aerial off the XSi, looked cooler than the huge long one; and some plastic OEM headlight protectors.

Mine is black and an end of run 1995 N reg, with PPG being Guildford. The guy I got it from was loaded and traded it in for a Mercedes SLK; he just liked special little cars he told me. He looked after it and the trend has continued. Still has the original dealer plates on it and tax disc holder etc.

The white and red ones I've got as a rally car and parts bin are both FRW registrations. Meaning they were originally registered at the Coventry Peugeot factory and were to be turned in to competition cars in house or by dealers. Awesome little cars. I called Castrol Motorsport to have an oil discusion with an engineer once, and when I mentioned the 1294cc engine and it was the Rallye, he said that it was a "very special and great little engine". With 55k on the clock now it still pulls as well as it ever did, possibly more so now it's fully worn in.

Until you ask the question you won't know.

Hoolio, you're right. When I asked about five years ago, Peugeot said original parts are usually available for 10 to 12 years post manufacturing ceasing. I best go and ask the question and buy a set; or two. I've managed to pick up other bits and bobs over the years as well.

 

[stormduck]

It's the TU engine in them isn't it?

 

[Gordon]

It is Stormduck. TU2 J2/Z. It was specifically created for the S1 Rallye alone in the early 90's. It has 100 PS (99 hp/74 kW) with the old twin Webbers used on the 205 Rallye being replaced by a Magneti Marelli fuel injection system; a catalytic converter was added too.

Although if you have a very early 1994 Rallye the cat test doesn't seem to be a requirement in the MOT guidelines. Which is a bit of a bonus. The testing stations stipulate the emissions parameters for my 1995, but the older 1994 rally car sails through the emission test.

 

[stormduck]

i wanted one of those for a spell. My ex got a 1litre bog basic 106, such fun to drive, and the TU engine was a gem for 100k miles '92. Head gasket blew, replaced it at home and got the head skimmed, passed it on to my cousin who thrashed it for a year at 18 lol. Such easy engines to work on, proves why they were still using them in brand new 206s and saxo's ears and ears later.