First Trackday Experience - Now i want more!

[snakeskin boots]

Did my first trackday yesterday and i have to say that i enjoyed it even more than i expected too so i am counting the days down to the next one. I do have a few questions though for you guys that have done more than one and have upgraded their cars.

My trophy is standard and i thought the speed it could carry through the corners was amazing but the place i really was disappointed with it was with the brakes. i had a ride in the organisers BMW trackcar with uprated brakes and although he was no faster through the corners he could brake so much later. I have read that many of you have upgraded packages on your cars but i want to know what would be a good comprimise on the road and track in terms of disks and pads as i will definately upgrade the hoses and replace the brake fluid anyway.

Have any of you bothered with a set of semi slick trackday tyres, maybe on the 15" rims that the clio cup cars use? Does anyone know how this would affect the handling as the suspension was designed around 16" rims?

I have to say that seeing what the car and also what i can do was amazing even on the drive into work this morning i was feeling so much more confident around the bends. can't wait for the next one.

 

[Steve]

Keep those racing lines for the track! No, just kidding, not being lazy in my response but if you do a search using keywords such as 'brakes' and 'tyres' you'll see the threads on this extensively talked about subject. You are not alone in wanting better brakes for the track and there does seem to be a general concensus when it comes to track pad/disc combos that are tolerable on the road.

This is the tyres choices database thread:
http://cliotrophy.co.uk/forum/viewtopic ... ight=tyres

There is one Trophy owner that I know of (I think it was Cue?) That ran semi-slicks on silver 16" Turinis at a track recently. A good idea if you want to keep the nasty superheated brake dust off those Anthracite beauties!

With regard to the 15" rims, I imagine it will affect the handling to a degree and I leave it to someone like George K to give you the science of why...

 

[Cue]

yeh, i ran on 16", they were'n't semi slicks though they were yoko road tyres, on my Cup wheels i've had lying about for 12 months.

they're a good thread from earlier last week on the brakes subject - a good guide is on http://www.yozzasport.co.uk/store/products.php?cat=10 is a useful link also!!

 

[MikeS]

Personally speaking having done the odd trackday or so, I'd not be putting full slicks on a tin top hatch without first putting a cage in the car, the chances of it rolling are too high. I know some trackday organisers don't allow slicks on roadcars (esp hot hatches and scoobys) anymore if they're not caged up.

Just my 2p

 

[oliie]

but if you do a search using keywords such as 'brakes' and 'tyres' you'll see the threads on this extensively talked about subject

Oi that's my line!!

Seriously though - welcome

I have run PF97 pads, hoses etc. which are quite simply the best braking package out there without resorting to new calipers and custom pads etc.

However I would suggest going down the more usable road (e.g. DS2500) as the PFs are almost impossible to live with on a week to week basis for normal road driving and general car maintenance (read: rims, paintwork).

If you have the money and time buy DS2500 pads for daily use and another set of PF97s for track work and change them over (including discs if you're being anal) everytime you do track work. Unbeatable.

Cheers
O.

 

[George K]

Bearing in mind that I only really do hill-climbs and so my focus is on short runs, for which the softest tyres and road pads seem ideal, I hope the following may be of some help for trackday use where people do many laps and longevity/resistance to fade is important:

Brakes; The Yozzasport packages of Brembo HC discs, braided hoses and a choice of Ferodo 2500, Pagid RS42 or Performance Friction PF97 pads would seem to be good value options. Nik has experience of the Ferodo and PF97s and is about to fit the Pagids.

Wheels:

I am always very cautious about running non-standards offsets (ET) as smaller ET (the popular option, as they widen the track) will reduce the scrub radius on most FWD cars, which is why with modern wide tyres this can lead to instability under braking and inconsistent steering feel. The Trophy comes as standard with ET 45 – I note in the manual that the 15†wheel versions (with 195 tyres) of the 182 run ET 48.5, so that must be a clue as to what is desirable. That said, I believe that the 172 ran smaller ET, but may have had different hub widths, and I ran some 40 ET wheels off another car and did not experience any problems. So you can run 15†wheels as there is a much greater selection of tyres, but just beware the ET number – I would stick to 40 or greater. In the past I have machined 5mm off the back face of the wheel hub to increase the ET and have been able to tell the difference (this was not for a Clio). Obviously stay at the 7†rim width.

Tyres: Track orientated tyres have much stiffer sidewalls and so will keep the tread better under control – not only does this give better grip, but providing you are running a hard compound, will also give much better wear than a road tyre and not be any where near so sensitive to chunking. Just remember that they run at lower pressures – I am at 26/24- which was as recommended by the tyre manufacturer (Kumho V70A – super soft – which despite minimal tread are much quicker in the wet than the PE2). You may have more flexibility than I do, as I have to run road legal tyres (MSA lists 1A or 1B).

There certainly is a bigger choice for 15†rims – but just remember that as they will be at least 50 profile the stiffer sidewall is essential – and by that I do not mean as per the alleged Clio version of the PE2.

If you want to stay on 16â€Â, then there are only two tyres available – The Kumho V70A (hard – K90) or the Hankook RS2, which is a road compound and tread pattern on a track tyre construction. I am now getting some good reports of the RS2 and would guess that it is half way between a road tyre and a hard, road legal, track tyre.

Geometry: I reckon going to 2 degrees negative at the front is a must – it certainly has not made my car any less stable under power or braking, Looking at photographs, the Trophy rolls quite a lot and so any way of compensating is worthwhile. I am running 10’ total toe-out at the front and standard rear geometry.

Springs: The roll problem is somewhat inevitable with the high centre of gravity of saloons, and may be a reason to go for stiffer springs for circuit use; the Trophy is just right as it comes on the hills, where even the single seaters are relatively soft. It feels a bit soggy on sprints and lifts its rear inside wheel at the least provocation!! I have not followed up springs for the reasons stated, but would guess that you could go as high as 300 lbs/in on the front if running track tyres. Don’t forget that lowering it will increase the amount of droop at the rear and this may actually be counter-productive.

Oil surge: I have read that this may be an issue on some circuits – do a search.

Engine: Personally I would minimise expenditure and go for a re-worked inlet manifold and a re-map. Since I am after tenths of a second, and the Trophy feels surprisingly gutless up a hill in third, I shall also fit cams. It is probably personal obstinacy but I am not a fan of IK’s or exhausts, but will remove the accoustic valve and modify the airbox to take a 75mm sealed feed.

That is rather a long two penny worth, but I hope may give you some ideas – any other thoughts gratefully received as the world never stands still.

Good luck

 

[amm]

The ferodo DS2500 seam to be a good track day pad i have done a track day with them and did not experience any brake fade i would recommend them to any one .
yozza sport do the kit consists of brembo high carbon disks, braded brake hoses and ferodo ds2500 pads and it's less than £200 .

 

[snakeskin boots]

Cheers for all the information that you have put my way i am definately going to upgrade the brakes as this is the one area i think the car could be improved over standard.

There is also some food for thought over the wheel and tyre combo issue, i really want a seperate set of rims for the track but from what George says this will have to be carefully planned or else could end up ruining the handling of the car.

I am going to leave the suspension alone as it is used everyday for the road and i like the way it handles over the roads. I will get the front geometry checked out and adjusted as i have seen a few posts that say that this is a worthwhile exercise.

I have never really been after more power i think if i was i would rather spend the money on buying a more powerful standard car than spend 000's on making the Clio faster. Anyway i am sure like most of you the reason you bought the Trophy was the way it goes around the corners.

i will report back on any changes i make.