Those awesome dampers!!

[fazedesign]

But could you not get the same effect with a conventional damper?

A stiffer conventional damper would:

Increase camber compliance (contact patch)
Improve turn in
Reduce body roll

All the things the Trophy dampers do, with the exception of the heat protection the resevoir offers. So the question has to be, do we need that fade resistance?

My answer to this is that on track you will enduce brake fade along time before any issues with the dampers. So no they are not needed. Renault sport could simply have used a thicker stiffer conventional damper to achieve the same effect.

It's useful to differentiate between the two stiffnesses (oi, no sniggering at the back... :lol: ) that are being considered here - The first being the spring/damper rate combo ie. what most people are describing when they talk about stiffer suspension. Secondly there is the stiffness of the damper itself (ie how resistant it is to deforming when loaded)

The spring/damping characteristics of the Trophy could be potentially be replicated using a conventional damper (I say potentially because its possible that the space available for the valving inside the conventional damper may not allow the same characteristics to be obtained) However it would be fair to say that very similar characteristics could be obtained.

What the remote reservoir does allow is for a thicker damper rod to be used and the mechanical stiffness of the damper assembly to be increased, within a given sized package. Basically what this means is that the damper is able to do its job better (at whatever damping rate) and also that the wheel is held in the intended position better (better camber stiffness for example). This is a far more subtle effect than that of changing the damper rates and not something that would be practically achieved with the conventional damper.

I think the dampers are 50% marketing gimmick/50% technical improvement. The car would still handle well without them.

What I do know is that the Trophy is the most responsive car I have ever driven and is extremely confidence inspiring through the corners. I can't wait to get some proper tuition so that my driving skills have a chance to use all the potential that the cars handling gives!

Edit: As you say KS - the dampers are only part of an overall package - the wheels being part of that. If I was to modify a car for more performance I would first spend the money on tyres, wheels, suspension and driver training before looking at the engine!

 

[Nik]

Nik,

The Clio Williams is a better car than the valver over all. Now the Williams has a stiffer damper. To say that the Williams is a better car because it has a stiffer damper is rediculous. Its a better car because it was improved a small amount in a number of key areas. Agreed

The Trophy is the same. Its not a better car that other mk2's because of the dampers.
Not solely because of the dampers no, but they play a big part

Its a better car because of set up, and small changes in a number of areas.
Definitely

No one talks about 'oh those magic wheels'. Unsprung weight is the first thing any race team tries to reduce. They probably go alot further to making the car more driveable than the dampers.
Yep, the wheels are great, will be interested to see the effect on the handling with other heavier wheels fitted

People going on about how the damper makes the car discredits the car as a whole. If someone said the dampers on the Williams were magically better than valver ones theyd be wrong and get the same response from me.
Yep, the improvements on the Trophy is more than just the dampers, but they must have a very significant part to play in it. They are also quite unique as a factory fit item in cars of its class so they are bound to be the thing that people are going to mention more than anything else. Excluding the visual appearance, the dampers are the Trophy's primary defining feature. I didn't buy the car just because of the dampers it was the whole package, but that doesn't stop me from saying how good the dampers are in comparison with the other renaultsport models.

(trophysmall)

 

[mr StinKa gob]

But until you compare a recevoir damper with a non resevoir damper AT THE SAME DAMPER SETTING you wont know any improvement it makes, just as non of the useless journos know. Assumption is the mutha of all f ups.

Science is science. Saying something makes somthing better without testing it, is as much use as a chocolate tea spoon. Journos arnt scientists. Yet they make statements of fact like they have some authority to do it. Thy generally do it to sensationalise articles and sell mags. Lets not be guilty of the same thing.

Changing more than one thinmg on a car means YOU WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT CHANGE CAUSED THE IMPROVEMENT. Thats a fact.

I think we can say the Trophy is a great car. lets not say its down to the dampers UNTIL WE KNOW FOR SURE.

Now if you could get some heavy wheels to test on the car that would be interesting

 

[Jeremy]

This is the view of the engineer responsible for the Clio chassis set-up:

The Trophy suspension is lowered a further 10mm at the front with shorter springs. The dampers are supplied by Sachs Race Engineering and have a unique damping force/velocity curve. Usually used in competition cars, these dampers feature a remote reservoir to accommodate nearly 50% of the oil and gas. This remote reservoir provides three benefits:

It liberates enough space to package a thicker, and therefore stiffer damper rod, thus increasing camber compliance
The increased oil volume brings better thermal stability, to enable the damper to maintain optimal performance at all times
The space liberated allows a better quality for the hydraulic components to enable the damper valving to work more effectively

Another unusual feature of the damper is that a hydraulic bump stop replaces the usual physical elastometric one. This gives a much more progressive stiffness rate once the bump stop starts to work and thus allows a lower ride height without compromising bump travel. The objective of the lower ride height is to improve the turn in and reduce understeer.

It certainly isn't a marketing gimmick !

 

[fazedesign]

KS - A remote reservior damper WILL provide a stiffer strut installation and WILL give a performance increase for the suspension, its just one of the reasons why they are used in motorsport. I think the benefits to the average road car driver will be minimal but it will definitely yield an improvement. All my comments above are made as someone who works in the automotive and motorsport industries trying to explain and quantify the benefits of the suspension of the Trophy using my experience. As Trophy owner I'm proud my car has such features.

Jeremy - Still think the suspension is 50% marketing ploy :wink:, but one that has a firm engineering basis!

 

[mr StinKa gob]

LOL @ Jeremy.

Thats the marketing schpeel that is on the Renault website and that was regurgitated on every review. Do a search on google for clio Trophy resevoir damper and nearly every 'review' just copies and pastes whats on the renault web site. Please do not insult my intelligence that:

1 One engineer was reponsible for the Trophy chassis set up. It would be a team each with their own speacialities.
2. An engineer would be allowed to write marketing type for the web site. It would have been writen by marketing.
3. That any car under normal use would need to rely on its bump stops, hydraulic or not.


Jeremy do you know what the above actually means? Explain it in simple terms. Because to me the above is meanigless marketing spam:

'The Trophy suspension is lowered a further 10mm at the front with shorter springs.'

After maufactuers tolerances 10mm is nothing. Most lowering springs lower 40 odd mm

'The dampers are supplied by Sachs Race Engineering and have a unique damping force/velocity curve.'

A force velocity curve is just the force it takes divided by the time taken. Every damper ever made has a uniqur force velocity furve. LOL @ Renault

'Usually used in competition cars, these dampers feature a remote reservoir to accommodate nearly 50% of the oil and gas.'

The most common use for resevoir dampers is actually sports bikes and 4x4's not competition cars. Guess that wouldnt have sounded so zingy though.


'This remote reservoir provides three benefits:

It liberates enough space to package a thicker, and therefore stiffer damper rod, thus increasing camber compliance'

Liberates enough space from what? Have a look under a Clio, there is masses of room under the wheel to fit massive dampers. Meaningless Renault mumbo jumbo. They are used in sport bikes alot because space is indeed minimal and the best damper in the smallest area is an advantage. Camber compliance isnt realted to resevoir dampers but how stiff the suspension is.

'The increased oil volume brings better thermal stability, to enable the damper to maintain optimal performance at all times'

Well done Renault, damper fade inhibition properties. The real reason they are used.

'The space liberated allows a better quality for the hydraulic components to enable the damper valving to work more effectively'

This isnt even very good English. I think it should read ''The space liberated allows a higher quality OF hydraulic components to enable the damper valving to work more effectively' Sounds like a miss translation from French to me. :roll:

'Another unusual feature of the damper is that a hydraulic bump stop replaces the usual physical elastometric one. This gives a much more progressive stiffness rate once the bump stop starts to work and thus allows a lower ride height without compromising bump travel. The objective of the lower ride height is to improve the turn in and reduce understeer.'

This basically means Renault have lowered the car to a point where the suspension travel isnt enough to rely on the springs and dampers so they have had to use a strengthened bump stop to prevent the car 'grounding' on its own suspension all the time. Rediculous.

Basically all the above is marketing rubbish that means nothing.

 

[mr StinKa gob]

KS - A remote reservior damper WILL provide a stiffer strut installation and WILL give a performance increase for the suspension, its just one of the reasons why they are used in motorsport. I think the benefits to the average road car driver will be minimal but it will definitely yield an improvement. All my comments above are made as someone who works in the automotive and motorsport industries trying to explain and quantify the benefits of the suspension of the Trophy using my experience. As Trophy owner I'm proud my car has such features.

Jeremy - Still think the suspension is 50% marketing ploy :wink:, but one that has a firm engineering basis!

I agree. They are used in motorsport to prevent damper fade. Look where they are used. 4x4's. Why? Because the suspension takes a pounding. Sports bikes. Why? Because the suspension takes a pounding and they run stiff springs. Rally cars. Why? Because the suspension takes a pounding.

Road use they have little benefit. On a smooth track, again, little benefit.

 

[Jeremy]

KS - I can see why you have been banned from most sites

 

[mr StinKa gob]

Why? Because i say what i think? Im insulting no one. Im stimulating debate. Im passionate about cars and liike to discuss them. But i dont play the corporate game, sorry. If you have some hard data on the dampers get it up here, and prove me wrong.

 

[fazedesign]

I agree. They are used in motorsport to prevent damper fade. Look where they are used. 4x4's. Why? Because the suspension takes a pounding. Sports bikes. Why? Because the suspension takes a pounding and they run stiff springs. Rally cars. Why? Because the suspension takes a pounding.

Road use they have little benefit. On a smooth track, again, little benefit.

They are still of benefit on track - both touring cars and gt cars I have worked on have used remote reserviors primarily to allow a stiffer damper and to increase the thermal mass (giving better resistance to fade) - Indeed one of the cars still showed an unwelcome amount of damper fade during rig testing despite using a remote system (in this case truly remote rather than piggyback as with the trophy)

I think the thermal characteristics are less of an issue for road use but the primary benefit in normal driving will be seen from the stiffer damper body and its associated benefits. Having said that its by no means uncommen for dampers to fail due to head (& therefore pressure) build up during suspension testing on pave (think harsh cobblestones being driven over almost continually)

 

[Jeremy]

Why? Because i say what i think? Im insulting no one. Im stimulating debate. Im passionate about cars and liike to discuss them. But i dont play the corporate game, sorry. If you have some hard data on the dampers get it up here, and prove me wrong.

I find your post insulting.

 

[hyb]

Why? Because i say what i think? Im insulting no one. Im stimulating debate. Im passionate about cars and liike to discuss them. But i dont play the corporate game, sorry. If you have some hard data on the dampers get it up here, and prove me wrong.

no..probably because your a williams preeching annoying poster

 

[DieHard]

Thanks for all of this science about the dampers on my car, I now consider myself better informed !

 

[mr StinKa gob]

Why? Because i say what i think? Im insulting no one. Im stimulating debate. Im passionate about cars and liike to discuss them. But i dont play the corporate game, sorry. If you have some hard data on the dampers get it up here, and prove me wrong.

I find your post insulting.

Oh well, have a Starbucks on me

 

[mr StinKa gob]

Why? Because i say what i think? Im insulting no one. Im stimulating debate. Im passionate about cars and liike to discuss them. But i dont play the corporate game, sorry. If you have some hard data on the dampers get it up here, and prove me wrong.

no..probably because your a williams preeching annoying poster

LOL where have i compared the Williams to a Trophy? Is my moniter not picking up some posts?

 

[Nik]

Ok, just to get things straight maybe you could answer this question for me Stromba?

If you could replace the Sachs damper on a Trophy with a standard 182 Cup damper, would you expect the Trophy to then perform equally as well / better or worse?

 

[mr StinKa gob]

The springs on the Trophy are lower and i assume stiffer so using a damper off another car would likely effect the suspension negatively. You have to match the damper rates to springs.

F = - kx - bv is simple equation describing spring damper relationships.

F= force, k = tightness of spring, x = distance between the spring ends, b = coefficient of damping and v = the velocity of the two spring ends

Large values of B (large damping) stop the spring bouncing quickly. If B is equal to zero then the spring will bounce forever. Low values of B would allow the car to bounce over bumps. Cars with traction problems over bumps have dampers with too low a values of B, as dampers are really just dissipaters of energy (converting movement to heat).

Using that equation to your question about the 182 cup dampers would show that K, X and V are the same as the springs haven’t changed. All that has happened is that you’ve changed 'B', the coefficient of damping. Both compression and rebound have to be considered. What happens depends on whether the dampers are stronger or weaker.

If compression damping is too little (b too little; damper too 'stiff') then the suspension will not travel the entire length of the bump because the damper is not compressing at a quick enough rate. This will cause the suspension to 'move' the sprung mass of the car upwards. This is what happens when people describe their car as having a harsh ride. It jumps over bumps. On the rebound the damper will be unable to prevent the spring crashing back down and little energy will be dissipated to heat. The spring will compress again. The result is that the car will bounce but body roll will be reduced (This is exactly the mistake people make when they fit coilovers and lower and stiffen the car. They set the damping too low and the lack of body roll is misinterpreted as an improvement (‘handles like a go kart syndrome’). The car is worse.

If compression damping is too much (b too high; damper too 'soft') then the suspension will move too much in reaction to bumps and the wheels will lift up off the ground. The spring will start to become irrelevant as movement is transferred to the damper. On the rebound the springs will be under compressed and so there is no force to push the wheel back onto the road so the car ‘floats’ around. Body roll will be increased.

In both cases the car will loose traction and grip.

 

[Nik]

Well ok, I actually meant the whole strut, including the spring.

 

[Tomx]

KS you have tried to prove you point but as you suggest you have not driven a Trophy, so I can't understand why you think you are an expert on sachs dampers. You should prehaps take you arguments up with various magazines and people who really care what you think or not.

I have not brought a Porsche or ferrari and have payed peanuts in comparison for my Trophy and admit it is not in the same class. But for the money and in my opinion you can't buy better.

You may prehaps have the best Williams in the world which obviously proves you don't use it but I would prefer to drive an up to date car and not dwell on a relic. Probably was a good car in its time but I will never know because they don't make them any longer.

At the end of the day I can't see what you are trying to achieve most people on here have paid their money and are happy with their cars and me for one think the dampers are excellent although i do not have the expertese like yourself. =D>

 

[mr StinKa gob]

Well ok, I actually meant the whole strut, including the spring.

Well if you swapped the whole suspension, including the wheel, i think you would notice it yes. I do think the Trophy is am imporvement, from what ive read and seen. I was watching you at Donnington alot. I just dont think the imptovement is the result of the damper. I think its the combination of subtle changes (including the damper).

Dont get me wrong, the dampers would make a difference on long track days. But who does 25 laps non stops flat out?

However, if you read the Renault type and mag reviews you would have thought the improvement was JUSt the damper.

I know alot of people werent that impressed with the 182 as a car. Maybe the Trophy is the car Renault should have made in the first place.