New MK3 Rsport

[Tomx]

I must admit the 197 is an interesting prospect and I tend to think alot of 182/Trophy owners dismiss it possibly because they don't want to loose alot of money on a new car or can't afford to buy a £16,000 car.

I like my Trophy and would only swap it for a 197 in a year or two's time when a new version comes out or as said before the Corsa VXR.

 

[hyb]

Looks good in Evo

 

[7MAT]

I've got to admit the new 197 is starting to grow on me, although it would need a cup version to come out (in white) with the option of a racing rear spoiler before I'm tempted to trade in my Trophy.

 

[OliS]

That looks so good, would make an awesome trackday toy! How much do the race teams have to pay for them?

 

[Tomx]

I think they are around 20k

 

[Steve]

The cup racer looks great but I have to say, I didn't like the pictures in this month's EVO. One of the readers letters hit the nail on the head when he said about the weight of the 197 being 5kg more than the first Impreza! It is getting ridiculous, why can't people just move up a class (ie. Megane) if they want more space?

Interesting read, a very well-sorted car but not a five-star one. 1-0 to the Trophy, on turning the page it was even more interesting to see that the New Mini S Works GP has to have 218bhp to achieve the same 0-60 time of the Trophy! And it's £22,000!!!

 

[Johnnytheboy]

My old man went to Italy and drove the Mini round a track (wearing his journo hat). I asked him how quick it was and he said much the same as mine... I thought the same as you.

 

[OliS]

One picture I did like in this months Evo, was of the optional Recaro's in the 197, think they are just an more modern version of the Trophy Recaro's, but they look fantastic.

It seems like Evo were quite taken by the 197, saying that "point to point it would take a very talented driver in a 182 to stick to the 197's rear diffuser when the going gets bumpy and twisty". But in the rating they point out that it has "lost some of the 182's rabid charm", which for me is a big part of the hot hatch experince.

Can't wait for the Trophy v 197 road test that will come in the near future, hope they give the Trophy another crack around Bedford, I can't stand reading the track times in the mag and seeing the Trophy further down the list than the 182 Cup!

 

[Steve]

hope they give the Trophy another crack around Bedford, I can't stand reading the track times in the mag and seeing the Trophy further down the list than the 182 Cup!

Can't agree more with this one Oli, it really does annoy me when you know the Trophy would be quicker around that track with the same conditions/driver etc. Not by much but still quicker than the Golf GTI etc, Astra VXR etc. Re-test please, and completely ignore the chicane this time!

It was a very interesting article on the 197 and it's undoubtedly a very good car, I would pick one over a Focus ST/Megane 225 Cup/Golf GTI etc. Just not over a Trophy. :lol:

 

[Portland]

Test drive booked for last week while they have a look at a door dink.

I'll know one way or another...

 

[nickb]

Had a look at a black 197 the yesterday, never liked them in the photos but tbh I think its a pretty good looking car. More aggressive than I thought it would look but I don't suppose I expected much after seeing initial photos. Think might go drive it next week out of curiosity.

Spoke to the salesman and he reckons they're defo bringing out a cup and trophy model and then a sponsored model in red and white.

 

[Steve]

That would be great if they did...but unfortunately salesmen come from the planet of ArseSpeak and are incapable of saying anything that is even a close approximation of the truth, they should all be novelists with that level of creativity.

Of all the negativity about the 197 on here, I still think half of Trophy owners will be driving one (probably a cup) in a year's time.

The only way I'll be getting one is if I write off my Trophy and they bring out a 197 Trophy that weighs 1090kg and has trick dampers, oh and has 180bhp and is Capsicum red with anthracite wheels.

 

[Portland]

Well, I’ve driven the 197 and I don’t get any kickbacks from car manufacturers, nor threats of not placing any advertising with my publication/TV channel, so here are my thoughts:

It seems Renault have tried to make the car more “grown up†The boot is significantly bigger and the cabin seems roomier. They have made a bit of an effort with the trim and it is less plasticky than the mk II. In terms of looks, it is moving distressingly towards the small hatch Eurobox template and looks a lot less distinctive than the mk I or mk II. The brake vents and splitter give a slightly aggressive look, but it looks incomplete without a spoiler. The colour might be a factor here, the blue one I drove looked nothing special, but a non-Renaultsport in black also on the lot looked a little meaner. The seats are much better than those in the normal 182, a big factor for me as I had spinal surgery a little while ago. Much comfier, nice and supportive, height adjustable and with a lumbar support, these are in a different league to the mk II seats. If you think this is not important, you are wrong. You spend virtually your whole time in the car in that seat, and you have to be comfortable and supported.

This growing up gives us toys like the extra air bags, the NCAP 5 rating and thus “safest small car†and associated car of the year award. The car appears “bigger†than the mk II and feels more Golf than Lupo if you see what I mean. Bit roomier without a huge price premium for the smaller engines and lower trims, but I’ll come back to this. It also gives us part of the “problem.†All these airbags and reinforcements contribute to the weight. “Additional weight in a small car is never a good thing.†TM

How does it “feel� It’s a sporty hatchback and it’s quick for a car in its class. Time for a bit of an aside here: The problem is, there is nothing else in it’s class, as it lies in between the currently established sectors. Renault has never been afraid of doing things like this. After all, they created Euro MPVs with the Espace and although it was a slow starter, look how many hatchback vans you see on the school and Tesco run now. The new Clio is bigger and quicker than the Fiesta ST, Corsa VXR, the mentalist Suzuki Swift and C2 VTS, and accordingly costs a few quid more. The issue is that you can spend a few quid more and get a significantly bigger and better performing car in the Focus ST, Astra VXR, Golf GTI and oddest of all, the Meggy 225. If you’re in the market for a slightly bigger sporty hatch, I can see no reason not to opt for the bigger, turbocharged offerings.

Anyway, back to the 197. It moves nicely through the revs, but this is deceptive. The 6 speed box does not have a significantly higher top ratio, so you do similar revs to the Mk II at “motorway speeds†(The test I went on involved 2 junctions worth of motorway, as I’d mentioned I’m doing more “business miles†as well as tearing round A roads) It means you can stay a bit more on the power by changing frequently, and this is involving, but could become a bit of a nuisance as it’s a “normal†gearbox rather than a techy sequential or flappy paddle device. Having said that, the gearstick is fairly well positioned and was comfy for me to use, despite my height. It only needs quite a short throw, and does feel quite precise, although 4th did feel a little bit vague, but this might be due to only driving for half an hour or so, and you may get used to it. It feels quick, but due to the short ratio and smoother power curve, does not have the hugely entertaining “kick†of the mk II. In reality, it is probably only a fraction slower on the sprints and top end than the 182 cup and Trophy, but the quieter engine and bigger feel to the car make it feel more sedate.

We all know that top end isn’t everything, and it comes down to how well can you lose the badly driven Boxster through the twisties? This is where the weight comes in. The car does feel planted, and corners fairly flatly compared to a rep-mobile and in fairness seems able to be pushed a little further than the full fat 182 (I test drove a full fat, cupped and a 182 cup at the same dealership round the same bends and roundabouts last year so can compare to an extent, even with time skewing the view. But the 182 full fat was also lardy. The thing is, despite the better brakes, short ratio box and extra power, I think it will struggle if put up against a 172 cup, 182 cup or 182 trophy round a twisty track. It feels secure, but just doesn’t feel as “fun†somehow. In making the car look and feel more grown up, some of the hooligan fun has gone away. The electric power steering seems to give less feedback than the hydraulic system on the mk II. My other half has a mk II Golf 16vGTI with no power steering at all, and that tells you exactly what’s going on with your grip, but is then a tank to park. Don’t get me wrong, it drives in a very tidy fashion indeed, but just seems less fun and edgy than the mk II Clios. If you’ve driven a 225 Meggy, it’s a very similar comparison.

This comes back to the main issue. In it’s full fat form, I really can’t see why you would want to buy a 197 over a 225 or ST. When you add the optional extras, there is very little price difference. Yes, Renault dealers will discount their 197’s, but will also discount their 225’s. Ford dealers will do a little discounting on the ST (though perhaps not to the same extent) and dub dealers will knock even less off the Golf, because they can point to the amazing residuals.

The chap I had the test drive with was very helpful and friendly, and told me some stuff “off the record†so I agreed if I posted this not to mention his name or the dealership. I had to whip to a nearby supermarket to literally get some cash out and grab some things from the kiosk at the front, so I offered to give him a spin in the Trophy (he’d not been in one as he was quite new to the dealership) and it was on the way back he told me that he’d given a couple of test drives to 182 owners and they’d all said the same thing. Nice, but not as much fun as the 182, and a little expensive when specced out. He could now see what they meant by the lower fun factor too. Until prices drop, he’s expecting very few sales from people wanting to move up from their mk II’s with cup packs, although one lass with a non cupped 182 full fat was still interested, but had also booked a test drive in a 225 and wants to try the F1 variant too. This says it all.

My summary is simple. Wait for the cup. Prices on the full fat will have dropped by then, and the inevitable cup suspension tweaks and weight saving are likely to make a big difference, although perhaps not to such the same degree as with the 172 and 182, as there is less kit as standard. This is a very nice car for the money, but has lost the extra bit of fun that dissuaded you from opting for the Meggy or ST if you were 182 cup shopping.

In these days of the nanny state and litigation, we are NOT going to get another 205 1.9 GTI, and that's that. Hot hatches will become safer and warmer. Still a giggle, but less raw fun. It may just be that the 172 cup and 182 Trophy are the last of the true hooligan fun in an affordable small car. This is not all bad, you'll be in a more comfotable environment, but smiling more because you're comfortable, safe and relaxed, even if some (but in no way all) of the fun has gone.

 

[Steve]

Brilliant review Portland, you've confirmed all my thoughts about the 197. What have Renault done with the class blurring thing? Surely if sales do go well for the 197, they will be stealing sales from themselves in the form of the 225. There are a lot of things I like about the new Clio but more things I like about the MK II, and the biggest one being the 'hooligan factor', or in my thinking the 80's hot-hatch spirit.

You summised brilliantly with "we are NOT going to get another 205 1.9 GTI, and that's that." This is how I sold mine to a 21-year old yesterday, by saying that they just can't make cars like this anymore, it's not allowed. The Trophy might very well be the last in a brilliant lineage stretching back to 1977 with the MK I Golf. The hot-hatch isn't dead, it's just evolved into something else. Bigger, heavier, safer and less fun because of it.

 

[duffer987]

I have to agree with ya Portland. Luckily my local Renault dealer is next door to my work so I could take it on the same back roads that I've spent the last 3 years driving first a 172FF and now a Trophy on. I have to admit I liked it more than I thought I would.
I liked the steering wheel alot, along with the supportive yet comfortable seats and the improved drivers position. The placement of the shift-up light to the middle of the rev counter and away from the corner of the dash where I never see it anyways is a minute change, but shows that they didn't skip on small details...well not all of them anyways. The rest of what Portland says about the interior is spot on.
The sales rep was well cool and didn't mind me throwing it around one bit and as I'm probably the least accomplished driver on this forum all I'll say about driving it is its sure planted, the delivery is smooth( too smooth), but the whole grown-up nature of the car has removed the adolesent fun.
Of course being Renault they still grab bits and bobs and mix and match from other models, such as the wiper stalk coming from the Scenic apparently. Also even though its got bigger there's still no dedicated room for a spare and you get the shaving cream instead. It is definitely a tweener and I'd go for a 225 Cup over the 197...that said 'when' they cup it I may think differently. Regardless nothing Renault is producing at the moment is gonna get me to part with my Trophy, it just results in too many
If you'll allow me to end on a musical aside: remember when Teenage Fanclub came on the scene in the late 80's early 90's and they made some great thrashy, jangly 3 minute pop songs, then they 'matured' and the songs became longer, more heavily produced and mellower? well that's the 182 to 197 in a nutshell. Don't know what the hell I'm talking about? Now you know how my friends feel :wink: )

 

[oliie]

Great review guys.

Don't forget the £15.5k tag is just a market 'positioning'; in reality most units will be sold at £13k very soon. By contrast you can't buy a ST for less than £17k. So there is still quite a bit price wise between the cars.

Cheers
O.

 

[duffer987]

Thats what I'm wondering too Ollie...when does Reno blink and drop a few grand from the sticker price...in time for Xmas maybe :wink:

 

[cardealer]

Portland: Great review and comparison, summary 'hooligan' hatchback quote really does sum up the end of an era. The proof will be if Trophy residuals hang in there once the 197 is discounted. When I say hang in there I mean anything averaging over £10000 as most Renaults halve in value in 12 months!
Duffer: People have thought I was 'random' for years so I love the Teenage Fanclub analogy, there is obviously a natural law of all things that states that they become more complicated and of less use until something comes along and takes over. Prog Rock and Punk Rock comes to mind. But will there ever be another 'punk' hothatch?
I've been driving a 172 Cup the last week, I feel like bunging some Recaros in it and keeping it. It's fantastic and It's got an airbag so it's not exactly a Pinto! (clue to past Ford product liability debacle)

 

[duffer987]

With music its easy, as CDs and MP3s dont cost much, to swap genres when the mood hits but I can't quite swing owning a trashy Trophy and a 'more composed' Golf GTI...so until I outgrow the 3 minute pop tune Trophy the 197 (in its current un-cupped form) can stay on the 'new releases' shelf :wink:
Pintos! :shock: My grandad had one of those, what an awful, awful car!

 

[cardealer]

One also caught fire in a rear ender a week before launch.....you guessed it, they launched anyway and put an amount of money aside for each car to cover any 'problems' ...