AT last good brakes.

MrD06 · Sep 16, 2006

Just fitted Brembo High CArbon disks with Pagid RS42 pads braided hoses and 5.1 dot.

took a day to bed in did disks first with 3 lots of heat treat with full cool down and then 10x 90 Mph stops to do the pads till fade.

Bite is great now and the extra G you get when stopping make you feel sick.

why the standard brakes were so bad I have no idea as Evo said the brakes were good, but then they also said the TT brakes are good when they are even worse.

I take Evo mag with a pince of salt these days.

pacey · Sep 16, 2006

Std brakes on mine and no problems in spirited road driving . But as with any car i have i will fit better after market stuff when the time comes.

polarbert · Sep 16, 2006

How much did the setup cost you all in?

OliS · Sep 16, 2006

Good to hear you've found a set up that you are happy with, I want to do something about the Trophy's brakes, just making my mind up about what set up is best...After drving the 197 I thought that the Brembo 4-Pot set up on that was the way forward, but seeing as the Trophy's brakes can be transformed by discs, pads, hoses and fluid it has got to be the way to go, considering the cash saving.

Nik has always spoken highly of his similar set up, with both the trackday spec PF97 and the less aggresive Ferodo DS2500. I reckon I'll go for a set of fast road pads (Mintex M1144/Ferodo DS2500/Pagid RS42-1) first and see if they can handle the occasional trackday, and if they can't then I'll switch to more aggresive pad like yours.

Don't mean to be a scaremonger, but are you ok to use DOT 5.1 brake fluid? I thought the Trophy's system was designed for DOT 4...

Johnny415 · Sep 16, 2006

Is it possible to get a Brembo 4 pot kit for the Trophy? I have a set on my Saxo and they are probably the best mod I have carried out and would be interested in a set for the Trophy altough in the month of owning the Trophy the brakes have yet to let me down.

oliie · Sep 16, 2006

The PF97s are very good... as are the HC discs and braided lines

MrD06 · Sep 17, 2006

all in only Ã‚Â£235 i was going to buy the groved disks but did not have the extra cash at the time.

Motul Dot 5.1 is fine, its seal safe and has better boiling point and is NON Silicone base fluid.

Dot five pure Silicone base is prob what you mean.

MrD06 · Sep 17, 2006

PS dont bother with less aggressive pads.

go PF or PAgid RS42 as they are a fast road non squeal pad.

the higer grade track pads are ceramic based and make the noise like pagid RS14 etc

Mintex M1144/Ferodo DS2500/Pagid RS42-1 are the next step down and imo a waist of time if your changing pads any way. but Still all good pads.

I have aways had RS42 pads on all my cars and they are a great high cabon squeal free pad with good temp range and good low temp bite and worth the extra cash.

OliS · Sep 17, 2006

Spot on mate, I was referring to silicone based DOT 5

Judging by the long pedal travel I've experienced at both trackdays I've done, I've probably boiled my fluid so I was going to change that soon during my 12k service, I might try to find the cash to replace the hoses, discs and pads at the same time.

MrD06 · Sep 17, 2006

well Motul seems very good and had a good temp range much better than 4.1 and other 5.1.

This polyglycol based brake fluid vastly exceeds the highest DOT specs. For use in all systems that require a DOT 3, DOT 4 or DOT 5.1 fluid. With its very low viscosity, this brake fluid is specially designed for today's newer ABS systems where a very thin fluid is needed to circulate in modern complex ABS systems with microvalves and anti-locking systems. Also for older, first generation ABS systems more sensitive to a brake fluid's viscosity. A full synthetic based fluid that has unreal 509 degree dry boiling point, and similar 365 degree wet boiling point, it will outlast all normal Dot 3 and Dot 4 fluids easily. PDM has been testing this fluid and find it vastly superior to any other street fluid on the market. Each container is filled with nitrogen to increase the shelf life and eliminate contamination while factory sealed.

oliie · Sep 17, 2006

MrD06 said:
Mintex M1144/Ferodo DS2500/Pagid RS42-1 are the next step down and imo a waist of time if your changing pads any way.

I don't think I can agree with this (I I don't think Nik will either and he's been through about 7 sets of discs/pads on the Trophy...).

It may be true for track days, but for day to day driving (read: motorways etc.) the PF97s of this world are in my opinion just too aggressive. They don't offer great cold bite (try locking your wheels with cold pads, for instance, if someone runs out in front of you as you drive down your street for the first time in the morning).

Also the dust is very aggressive and if you don't clean your wheels every other day, you will end up with clumps of pad on your rims that are nearly impossible to remove and oxidise when it rains (ending up with orange alloys). Certainly no fun in winter when most will wash their car, realistically, every week at the very minimum. They will also eat a set of discs very quickly (two sets of discs to one set of pads).

That said, when they are hot, the PFs are unrivalled. They stand up to four laps of the Nurburgring without any issues whatsoever. They will make holes in the tarmac.

However despite the benefits, I will be putting in DS2500s or one of the new Mintex E marked pads for day to day driving and keeping the PFs exclusively for track days. The DS2500 are far superior to stock pads (higher friction co-efficient, much higher ideal working temperature, slightly more dust) so how they are a waste of time is beyond me. The only place they will not hold up on is the track - which is where the PFs should come into play (exclusively in my opinion).

So the answer is to have two sets of pads in the cupboard

Cheers
O.

MrD06 · Sep 17, 2006

Which is why I went pagid RS42 best of both worlds

Good road pad and track pad.

Changing pads for track and road is not a good idea as the way you get bite is to have pad transfer on the disk a few microns thick. If you swap pads over you will be bedding in different pad material

Ok I did go over the top when I said waist of time lol

but RS42 have good cold bite and higher top temps than Mintex M1144/Ferodo DS2500/Pagid RS42-1

so just fit RS42 there is no reason not to

Nik · Sep 17, 2006

I've just come to the end of a set of Ferodo DS2500's after running PF 97's since day one with my Trophy. I've been very happy with them, they work nicely on the road and better from cold than the PF's (although i never had any complaints about the PF's from cold) and have used them on a couple of track days without any major issues.

They obviously aren't as good as the PF's on track but they do fine. I was running 25 minute long sessions at Brands Hatch and didn't get them fading. I suspect they might suffer a little on circuits that are harder on the brakes like Bedford and Donington though. But then if they do start to fade a bit, i'd rather stick in a cooling down lap or two while out on the track than spend the rest of the year cleaning my wheels, paintwork and replacing discs as I had to with the PF's

I'm now in two minds what to replace them with. I'm very tempted to go with some more of the same to be honest, especially for the price. Or do i give the Pagid Blues a try? What's the dust like from them MrD06?

George K · Sep 17, 2006

I have probably asked this before, but for hill climbs, where there is not any chance to pre-heat, it is all about initial bite from cold. Fade is not an issue - so recommendations please.

BTW can someone please explain why pads such as DS2.11 are described as not suitable for road use, with Mu of 0.78) they look very tasty.

Thanks

Steve · Sep 17, 2006

MrD06 said:
why the standard brakes were so bad I have no idea as Evo said the brakes were good, but then they also said the TT brakes are good when they are even worse.

I take Evo mag with a pince of salt these days.

I think you must have had duff brakes on your Trophy, because mine are completely standard and are absolutley awesome for the road, never experienced fade and can get the ABS working with little effort (any more friction than this is a waste). EVO have done a few tests now with a standard Trophy and found the brakes not only to be adequate but really good on the road, better than an M6's in fact. You should always read journalists write-ups as just opinions at best (paid adverts at worst), but backed up by my own 8000 mile experience with the Trophy, I would say the standard brakes are more than in keeping with the engine and chassis performance of the car. That said I will be upgrading some of the components for track use as very few road cars will survive more than a few laps without fade on the standard discs/pads, they have to take lots of other factors into account, cost being a major one!

OliS · Sep 18, 2006

George K said:
I have probably asked this before, but for hill climbs, where there is not any chance to pre-heat, it is all about initial bite from cold. Fade is not an issue - so recommendations please.

BTW can someone please explain why pads such as DS2.11 are described as not suitable for road use, with Mu of 0.78) they look very tasty.

Thanks

I assume the DS2.11's are not suitable for road use as being proper race pads they will have a very high working temperature range and as such won't perform at temperatures generated by road driving.

The best technical data I've found for a range of pads so far is this one by Pagid - http://www.needforspeed.co.uk/htmlpages/techBRP03.htm (But then again you probably know more than this sheet will ever tell you anyway! :wink: )

I think I am tempted by the RS4-2 pads that MrD06 has just fitted, although I'd like to hear some feedback about if there are any dust issues with this pad first...

I'm figuring on going for better discs than the Brembo HC discs, can anyone tell me what makes these discs any different to the standard discs? Can they handle the heat generated by a serious set of pads?

George K · Sep 18, 2006

OliS, Thanks for this link - I am a total novice on this subject - all I am looking for is the highest coefficient of friction from cold. the RS4-2 looks good, but then so do RS14 and RS15. Can anyone recommend the best supplier. Oddly enough the private equity bank with whom I deal occasionally owns a group called TMD, who I think own both Mintex and Pagid - I will check with them, but being bankers I suspect they will not be much help at the sharp end of things!!

fazedesign · Sep 18, 2006

George K said:
Oddly enough the private equity bank with whom I deal occasionally owns a group called TMD, who I think own both Mintex and Pagid - I will check with them, but being bankers I suspect they will not be much help at the sharp end of things!!

yep TMD Friction own Pagid, Mintex and Textar amongst other brands, although I doubt their bankers will be particularly clued up on pad selection

MrD06 · Sep 18, 2006

rs 14 and 15 are ceramic and there much harder on your disks and squeal much more.

As for dust rs42 are about the same as standard and much less than PF.

MrD06 · Sep 18, 2006

disk wise you can go for these wish i did now looking at them ..doh...

or these nice alloy belled ones

or go the whole hog and fit 4 pots but AP dont make any nor do brembo.
there are some unbranded ones about though like these