Frayz’s Inferno orange 182 - Back in the old flame

[frayz]

Morning all,

I dare say this topic has probably been done to death, however i cant help but want to ask for some feedback if you can.

Im an ex Clio 182 FF owner, bought my last one with just 8k miles on the clock and enjoyed 4.5 years/84k miles of ownership. I sold it for what i thought was an upgrade to a Mini JCW GP1. Try as i may i never got on with the Mini, yes it was a little quicker and arguably more special being a GP, it just didnt drive quite like a cup chassis'd Clio. The GP only lasted 18 months before i was able to sell it for my dream car, a Porsche Cayman R.
Now i do 50 miles a day commuting on amix of country lanes and b roads and needed another daily. To that a friend was selling his Fiesta ST150 which he had owned from new and it was showroom condition.
Without hesitation or even viewing i bought the ST purely becuase i knew its condition and flawless history. (now in the "classifieds section")

FFwd 2.5 years and im still pining for another Clio. However im not 100% sure which one to go for.
Most 182s are trashed these days and finding a tidy one for sensible money isnt going to be easy, similarly the Clio 200 was the return to form for Renaultsport and arguably its newer, better built and a more solid car to occasionaly put my little girl in the back if ever i need to. (we have a family car too)

The newer car is not without its faults and issues though what with gearbox problems, electrical gremlins, low torque and high fuel consumption.
The Trophy will always be a Trophy and arguably, no mater how many miles you put on it, it will always be special.

A decent 182 is £4k, a good Trophy is £6k+ and then for not much more youre into 200 teritory.

For the ultimate daily, what wheer would your money go?

Cheers,

Frayz

 

[marrow]

Hi - I personally wouldn't consider a 200 over a 182/Trophy. You seem to like 'special' cars, so you may need to own a Trophy. However, there isn't a huge difference between one and your 'old' Cup. Perhaps, finding the best condition car is more important?

 

[frayz]

Fair comments,
Its just the standard car will never be a Trophy. As we all know, special cars are more than the sum of their parts.
I still know the chap i sold my 182 to, he still owns it and ive even considered buying it back. There is always that worry of revisiting an old girlfriend, and you soon rememeber why you broke up in the first place haha.

Its a real tough one, as ive still never actually driven a Trophy.

 

[Titan]

Looks like you have pretty good taste in some very nice cars.

Have you had the Cayman R long?
How do you find it?

They are meant to be a really great drivers car but they seem to sort of fly under the radar compared to other Porsches for some reason.
You never really see reviews about them in magazines etc.

 

[frayz]

Thanks,

I've actually had the Cayman R for 2.5 years, the same as the Fiesta. The Mini GP was my daily when ended up buying the R, but then needed another car for every day. Thats how I ended up buying the ST.

My R is quite a rare spec, in that its a 6 speed manual, with carbon buckets, spyder wheels, sport chrono, factory short shift and alcantara trim. Also in the launch colour for the R which is Peridot Green. Its got a few aftermarket mods on it since then too.
I have to say it possibly one of the finest handling cars ive ever driven. Its scalpel sharp with so much turn in bite and lateral grip. Corner speeds are as fast as your bravery and talent will carry you. Its not super powerful, but reasonably light at 1290kg and mine is approx 360bhp. So it punches pretty well for waht it is.

Its often an overlooked car, but theyre highly saught after and very strong on their money. A bit like the Trophy, very special to those that know and have driven one. I persoanlly think a cup chassis 182 is one of the best FWD chassis i've ever driven. Only the R26-R and current Trophy R have eclipsed it for me. The latest Mk8 Fiesta ST is right up there too, Ford have nailed that chassis.

Reviews are pretty slim of the Cayman R, however if you get to oportunity to drive one, do!
I'd guess you'll very much enjoy it, especially if its a manual one.

I've had some very fast/capable cars, however none that i have enjoyed as much as my Cayman R or my little Clio 182.
To put that into context, my other car alongside the 182 was a near 600bhp Subaru Impreza that i specifcally built for fast road. It ran KW clubsport dampers and AP Racing brakes amongst a lot of other very nice parts. It was monstrously fast and would cover ground pretty much faster than anything else ive ever experienced. However it was a car driven with wide eyes and gritted teeth. It was far too much for the public roads and that kind of took away alot of enjoyment for me.
I can say 100% i enjoyed driving the little Clio so much more.

A Trophy as a daily and Cayman R is pretty much my dream garage of handling perfection and automotive nirvana

 

[Titan]

That was a great review of your current and previous cars.

I would love to try a Cayman R but unfortunately they are pretty much non existent in my country.
I did actually see a R a few months ago,same colour as yours and looked really nice from what I could see on the opposite side of the motorway.

I agree with your point about having too much power in a road car.
Any more than 400hp can probably never be used or exploited fully on even more congested roads.

Well I hope you can find a suitable Trophy to finish off your dream garage

 

[frayz]

Thanks chap,
The Trophy market seems to be all over the place right now with people asking stupid money for even crap standard 182s.
What sort of money should I be looking to spend on a decent one and would you say I can happily do 50 miles a day in one?

 

[dablk]

I would consider a 182 as a daily if I had keys to something else if a curve ball did happen. I wouldn’t myself if I didn’t. I owned 3 x 182 2’s weekend cars but at the cheap end. All three a gremlin at some point.

Good 182’s are very hard to find now. For a solo daily hot hatch. I would probably aim for a last generation 1.6 T fiesta ST.

 

[SharkyUK]

I have nothing much to add other than... hello Porsche Cayman friend!!!!!

Getting back on topic... I would be going with the Trophy every time. Even with the headaches and rollercoaster journey I've had over the last 12 years, it hasn't really dulled my love and enthusiasm for them.

 

[photo_ed]

I have both a Trophy and a 2010 200 Cup, and to be honest I wouldn't want to use either as a daily driver commuting tool now.

When they were new, no qualms, but as they get older and running costs invariably increase, the parts ( now in the case of the 182 - and 200 will follow) become sparser and more difficult to source, they start to me personally to feel a little too special to be using as a daily hack. I thus have a much more normal vehicle for those duties. My Trophy & 200 are by no means garage queens I have to add and still get used very much as intended, just for driving pleasure rather than necessity.

If you're really set on the idea though I would personally say that the Trophy is the more road orientated car of the two, my 200 Cup feels pretty uncompromising at times on the road, but is utter magic on track.

If I was looking for an entertaining, brisk commuter, I'd be looking at a much more modern hot hatch - something like as some have suggested the one of the recent generation Fiesta ST's - under warranty and with a servicing deal.

 

[frayz]

I love the ST 180 and even more so the new ST200 but I have to say I really don’t want a turbocharged Motor. I want to stay NA ideally. If I were to go forced induction I’d prefer a supercharger for the throttle response. However the only car that fits that bill is the Mini R53 and I’ve been there and didn’t like it. The ST would mean another monthly repayment and that’s also something I’d rather steer clear of.
The 182 I feel is probably the better drivers car in that it probably feels quicker on the road and is more fuel efficient.
The 200 I think is a better built product with a more focused package. But I hear it’s quite poor to drive unless you’re on the limit and even when driven sensibly is poor on fuel.
It is a bigger, and newer car and probably better for getting my little one in than the 182 if needed.

My 182 used to regularly see 38mpg when driven sensibly and my little ST touches 40mpg in the summer months.
That’s probably because I don’t like it so much so potter about in it. Lol

How bad are the 200s fuel figures and gearbox issues?

 

[photo_ed]

I love the ST 180 and even more so the new ST200 but I have to say I really don’t want a turbocharged Motor. I want to stay NA ideally. If I were to go forced induction I’d prefer a supercharger for the throttle response. However the only car that fits that bill is the Mini R53 and I’ve been there and didn’t like it. The ST would mean another monthly repayment and that’s also something I’d rather steer clear of.
The 182 I feel is probably the better drivers car in that it probably feels quicker on the road and is more fuel efficient.
The 200 I think is a better built product with a more focused package. But I hear it’s quite poor to drive unless you’re on the limit and even when driven sensibly is poor on fuel.
It is a bigger, and newer car and probably better for getting my little one in than the 182 if needed.

My 182 used to regularly see 38mpg when driven sensibly and my little ST touches 40mpg in the summer months.
That’s probably because I don’t like it so much so potter about in it. Lol

How bad are the 200s fuel figures and gearbox issues?

I know what you're saying about modern turbo motors, I personally much prefer NA too myself.

I find both the 182 and 200 are great drivers cars, just in markedly different ways. In terms of power delivery the Trophy does feel more eager low down in the rev range than the 200, but the 200 goes ballistic as the revs pile on whereas the Trophy doesn't really thrive on revs quite the same. The top end in my 200 I find quite scintillating, but on the road in normal driving it's not always appropriate to be always exploring the upper reaches of the rev range!

My 200 being the Cup model lacks some of the toys & creature comforts of a 200FF (which is one of the things I quite like about it, I'm not a big fan of what I see as unnecessary fluff in a drivers car) and even the Trophy feels a more 'plush' environment, I think at the respective ages of them, the build quality is probably on a par really, I think finding a well cared for and maintained example of either is the key to how solid or not they feel now.

The Trophy I find rides more smoothly than my 200, the 200 feeling quite stiff (and noisy!) in comparison, very 'focused' as you say. However, I find the stiffly sprung 200 chassis with its significantly wider footprint/track do give it a lot more outright ultimate grip than a 182, it in my experience corners much flatter and quicker. However, the Trophy with the sachs dampers rides bumps on tricky b-roads better and dances about in a highly entertaining way.

As you say, the 200 is definitely roomier and more practical - no banging your forehead on the rear hatch - which is an occupational hazard with a Trophy due to the V6 spoiler, always remember to duck... ?

The 182 is quite a bit better in terms of fuel consumption than the 200, I'd say my Trophy hovers around an average of about 30ish, perhaps it might hit mid 30's on a long sensible motorway run. The 200 on the other hand never realistically sees 30mpg, average over the last 5yrs+ of mixed driving is around the 27ish mark for me. Gearbox wise, mine can very occasionally be a little grumpy from cold, but to be honest the whole car is when you first wake it up, once all the temps have got up it settles down (gearbox, engine & suspension) and is fine. I have heard other having more major issues with 2nd and 3rd gear syncros, but mine is still sub-40k miles so maybe that's something I'll have to watch in future. However, as I noted earlier, perhaps finding a good example which has been maintained and driven properly but with a good level of mechanical sympathy is something to bear in mind.

I hope my experiences of owning both cars is a help with your final choice! And best of luck in your search for a decent example of either if that's what you choose to do.

 

[Gordon]

You could try a FF 200 without the Cup Chassis. The Trophy is far more compliant than a 200 with Cup Chassis on British A and B roads; particularly those that are poorly surfaced. Taking that route with the 200 could remove the driving edge from it though.

I too have both Trophy and FF 200 with Cup Chassis, and as previously discussed with photo_ed the Trophy floats down roads due to the softer spring rates and Sachs. Whereas the 200 attempts to smash the road into submission with its stiffly sprung platform. This makes the Trophy far more involving and 'old school hot hatch' like than the 200. I'm also lucky enough to have a Series I 106 Rallye and the Trophy is much closer to that in ethos and driving experience than the Cup Chassis 200.

When I first purchased the 200 I thought it was so poor at speed on B roads (bouncing, banging, crashing about) compared to the Trophy I considered the possibility of putting the standard 200 springs on it to soften it up. There's a thread on Clio197/200.net somewhere. Then you'd have the softer springs retaining the faster steering rack of the Cup Chassis. I don't know if the Cup Chassis dampers would work with the standard springs and what the results would be. Probably a bit of a pigs ear.

If that combination didn't work, you may as well go for a non Cup Chassis with all the components specified to work together from factory, as I don't know how important a quicker rack and red brake callipers are to you. That said, if you know your spring rates you could have some custom springs made to soften up the ride of the 200 and still work with the Cup dampers; you're now getting into the dark arts area and could open a pandora's box of pain and complexity.

Inside the 200 is a way more pleasant place to be, however it's again not as supple. I have the Recaro CS's in the 200 and they're nothing like as pillowy as the Trendline's in the Trophy. The seating position is better in the 200, without the van driver stance of the Trophy. The 200 has (depending on the spec) BlueTooth for the phone and music. Although from the second hand ads I see few have that radio as standard - why I don't know. The 200 also full AC, but it's not really any better than the Trophy's 'Climate Control'. The interior materials are also superior in the 200. Again depending on how well the one you purchase has been looked after. Mine is a Sept 2012 car which I got in Feb 2015 with 3,100 miles on it from new and it's still like showroom. The plastics aren't great on any French car so could easily be scrappy now we're getting to ten years old.

On fuel the Trophy is better when not thinking about consumption. Yet believe it or not, brimming the 200 tank (and I mean really brimming it all the way up the filler neck), zeroing the trip and pulling directly onto the motorway for two hours at between 55-65 mph, then an hour of B roads at a constant 50mph (easy to get round any corner at that speed in the 200) it returned 42.8 mpg!

I never tried that in the Trophy, but I bet it would do similar. On that recent journey in the 200 it returned more than 300 miles and the needle is still clearly above half a tank. I think the gauge is calibrated, in that it takes a while to reach half, then when at half it more rapidly reaches the red. Life can be too short to do all this Driving Miss Daisy hyper-mile driving stuff. An interesting experiment nonetheless.

There has been a bit of an oil consumption issue with the 200. All well within Renault's guidelines, but in my view engines with 16,000 miles on shouldn't be using any/much oil at all unless being ragged to heck. Just steady driving was seeing the oil level drop down the dip stick to 3/4's after 500-ish miles. So I mentioned it and a Renault genius compression tested it, found a cylinder low on compression and thought it could be a piston ring sticking. Rather than panicking and pulling the engine apart we went with a mega engine flush that brings dead Renault diesel Kango engines back to life, and that brought the compression back to a healthy 160+ across all four. I noted a smoother idle and more power too, and now it's been returning these mega mpg levels it never did before when trying the same experiment.

The 'box has been fine (touch wood) and like photo_ed mentioned is just a little grumbly from cold. The first thing I did when I purchased it was to change the 'box oil from Elf NFJ to Elf NFP. The latter is the more modern spec and it made the world of difference. Again a long thread on Clio197/200.net about the 'box oil.

The synchro's are supposed to be made of soft French cheese, however I'd think quite a few of the 'boxes going pop have been due to driver error and real abuse. Another tip with the 'box is when the brake fluid is changed ensure the clutch master cylinder is cleared and refreshed of fluid too. It's the same fluid circuit and easy to do, but garages neglect it. I bet some 200's still have the same little bit of hydraulic fluid in the clutch master cylinder as the day they left Dieppe.

Anyway, I could dribble on all day about the differences between the two. I hope of some help. Feel free to pose other questions.

 

[Gordon]

As a couple of people have asked me about the Elf NFJ vs. NFP 'box oil debate, and if I'd put NFP in the Trophy 'box, for those interested the threads below.

There's a lot of detail. TB Rich is a serious engineer!

https://clio197.net/threads/gearbox-oil-mtl-redline-or-other.48351/ Post 12, is where I first get involved. There's a lot of dull technical stuff.

https://clio197.net/threads/oil.50010/ TB Rich and I chat from post six and follows on from the thread above.

https://clio197.net/threads/gearbox-issue.53904/#post-594863 I think this is a tread that contains the links to the two already listed above.

Enjoy the reading and hopefully it's helpful. Bit of a minefield I'm afraid!

 

[Gordon]

While I'm at it, the thread about the 200 Cup Chassis suspension set up. Quite a bit to consider if thinking about the Cup or Standard chassis. The angle I came at it was from the perspective of the Trophy set up being sublime (for British A and B roads).

All subjective to where everyone likes to drive of course. For me it's twisty rural A and B roads; that are usually bumpy and undulating.

Spring Rates & Damper Rebound - Rid me of this dreadful 200 Cup suspension

Hi All, as per the post title. Has anyone come up with a solution to tame the awful damping of the Cup set up, on a 200? I'm now 1500 miles into my ownership, the last 300 miles being on the usual poor quality tarmac and undulating roller coaster of British B roads. I cannot fault the 200 in...

clio197.net

 

[frayz]

Guys,
Thank you so much for such clear and honest feedback. It’s great to get some responses clearly written by knowledgable adults.

Well I’ve had a strange thing happen this weekend. Basically I sold my old 182 to a friends brother 4 years ago, he still owns it and has continued to look after it, largely it’s pretty much as I sold it. It’s picked up the tiny door ding and such, but other than that, she’s pretty straight all be it on 111k miles now. .

I’ve joked with him for a while about a straight swap with my ST for the 182. This usually results in the odd picture message/ text to eachother having cleaned our cars saying “cleaned your new motor, when we swapping? Etc” haha.

Well after I put up the ST for sale he said he would be tempted, not because he really wants an ST. His wife thinks the ST is a bit more grown up and it’s arguably newer and in better condition than the 182. He said he wouldn’t otherwise sell the 182 but knows what that car means to me and he’s open to the idea of a change. He knows the condition of my cars hence the Clio hasn’t let him down in the 4 years he’s had it.

Anyway, we have agreed a swap cars for a week or 2 to see if he likes the Fiesta and if my rose tinted memories of the Clio 182 hold true.

So here I am feeling like I’ve gone back in time as my old inferno orange 182 sits on my driveway. Trying desperately not to get too attached as I have to be prepared for him to say he wants to keep it.

It’s a very strange feeling, but being in it just feels like home.

 

[marrow]

Do I see fresh tyres? Let the fun begin!

 

[frayz]

Yeah oddly, I put 4 new Pilot Sport 4s on the ST about 3 weeks ago and he put 4 new Pilot Sport 3s on the Clio last week. Haha

 

[Titan]

It's meant to be.....

 

[frayz]

Its still on the drive