Toe setup

[PPTom]

Hello chaps, I had my camber and toe set up just before christmas, went for 1.5 neg camber and I was going for around the standard 12mins toe out, as per the common concensus. After speaking to the suspension expert at Northampton Motorsport, who were doing the setup I was advised to go for toe in rather than out. The reason being is that I do about 300 miles per week and the chap said that toe out would wreck my tyres very quick. So 12min overall toe in was set.
I've now done a full weeks wortrh of driving to work and I'm noticing that I'm constantly having to correct the car, even the tinyest bit of road camber and the car follows it. Seems like I'm constantly having to steer a little bit to the right.
For a couple of reasons I won't be going back to Northampton Motorsport (one being that there was about 25 mins of differance between each sides camber, althougth they said it was within tolerance), but I've thought about going somewhere else this week to have the toe adjusted. Any advice on my opitmum toe please?

 

[hoolio]

I'd suggest 12 is quite a lot for normal road use, but that aside when I had my 2 dogs of camber and 10 mins of toe I found that
the tramlining etc was massively improved. We also spent a long time recentering the wheel.

 

[g40steve]

I had my toe set at parallel, never had a problem on road or track.

 

[PPTom]

I'm seriously considering going parallel Steve, its either that or a little bit of toe out I think.
Hoolio, was your toe in or toe out and how did you find your tyre wear?

 

[marrow]

Why would you change to a parallel set-up? Does it have any advantages over the standard set-up (whatever that is)?

 

[hoolio]

Tom, sorry that was 10 mins toe out. Basically what i was trying to say was if you do loads of motorway/a road driving probably best to go for parallel. I don't do enough milage for tyre wear to be an issue.

 

[g40steve]

Why would you change to a parallel set-up? Does it have any advantages over the standard set-up (whatever that is)?

Tried every option.

Parallel suits my driving style & was very compliant on track.

No wear issues either.

Some of us try options rather than follow the crowd =D>

 

[hoolio]

Some of the guys can't afford to fiddle around and want tried and tested advice :wink:

 

[George K]

Ideally on a FWD car with negative scrub radius (as per the Trophy) you need a small amount of toe-out. Do not be mislead by track orientated people whho run different cambers and offset - often they have much smaller ET, which leads to minimal or even positive scrub radius. I had this debate with someone a couple of years ago, as he was adamant about toe-in, but on digging deeper, he admitted to over 3 degrees negative and different wheels.
if in doubt parallel is OK, but does not allow for tyre or busihing deflection.

 

[marrow]

Hi George, hope you're well.

I wish I could understand your response, it's gone completely over my head.

 

[BenG]

Ive always wished I could understand George's posts !

Every time I think im begining to understand, something else gets thrown in and I get lost completely . #-o

 

[hoolio]

This is pretty basic but quite good;

http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm

 

[Luke335]

I have 2 degrees negative camber and 10 minutes toe out. I do lots of miles and the tyres have warn evenly and not excessively either. It does follow cambers more than it did though.
I'm happy to follow tried and tested advice. Likewise, it's important that you use a trusted company to do the setup. I found that "within tolerance" just isn't good enough on a Trophy.

 

[scott]

I dont understand all this, i just had my alignment done and not sure they have done it correct, i dont understand the readout, i will try and explain then maybe someone can shed some light?

When they first put it on the machine the two front wheels were -0.01' left and 0.22' right.
The rears were -0.07' left and 0.13' right. Between the two is wrote -0.10'.
It they says total toe is 0.21'

Then for left its has castor and camber with -0.28' wrote between them.
For the right between castor and camber it has -1.02'.

Then at the bottom of the page at either side of the rears it has left camber -0.59' and right at -2.07'.

After they adjusted it the only thing that changed was the front toe, it now reads as follows.
Left is -0.05'
Right is -0.05'
Total toe is -0.10'

This is just totally confusing to me and the car is still pulling slightly to the left?
I will try to post some pics of the readouts.
Cheers Scott
Here is the pics, before

After

 

[George K]

Oops. All I was saying, or obviously failing to say, was that one would expect the Trophy to run a small amount of toe-out. If people have very different cambers and wheels, then there might be a case for toe in.

Running zero is OK, but does not compensate for the deflections that occur in all road car suspension systems and tyres.

 

[marrow]

Oops. All I was saying, or obviously failing to say, was that one would expect the Trophy to run a small amount of toe-out. If people have very different cambers and wheels, then there might be a case for toe in.

Running zero is OK, but does not compensate for the deflections that occur in all road car suspension systems and tyres.

George.... head and over... again for me. will have to read Hoolio's weblink - which looks very informative.

 

[PPTom]

George, if I remember correctly my NS front camber was set to -1'30'' and OS front to -1'54'', would this make a noticable differance?
also, what do you think would cause the reaction to even the tiniest bit of camber (I cannot let go of the wheel at any time)

 

[Luke335]

Scott, I think you need someone to sort out your camber settings at the front at least. Your average alignment place probably wouldn't do this. So far they have sorted your front toe, but thats not going far enough in my opinion. I had this done by Mark Fish and it made a big difference. Hopefully someone can suggest a place near Newcastle...

I dont understand all this, i just had my alignment done and not sure they have done it correct, i dont understand the readout, i will try and explain then maybe someone can shed some light?

When they first put it on the machine the two front wheels were -0.01' left and 0.22' right.
The rears were -0.07' left and 0.13' right. Between the two is wrote -0.10'.
It they says total toe is 0.21'

Then for left its has castor and camber with -0.28' wrote between them.
For the right between castor and camber it has -1.02'.

Then at the bottom of the page at either side of the rears it has left camber -0.59' and right at -2.07'.

After they adjusted it the only thing that changed was the front toe, it now reads as follows.
Left is -0.05'
Right is -0.05'
Total toe is -0.10'

This is just totally confusing to me and the car is still pulling slightly to the left?
I will try to post some pics of the readouts.
Cheers Scott
Here is the pics, before

After

 

[George K]

PPTom. Obviously matching cambers are ideal - but you are within a safe tolerance there - I regularly find that they are equal, just that the garage floor on which the measurements were taken is not perfectly level. Sometimes the alignment machines are not properly zeroed - had an interesting saga on my DC5 where the rears were out by over 1.30' - so much that it was obvious to the eye!! I have reverted to doing it myself, after calibrating the floor and the gauges!!

The reaction is usually caused by worn tyres, if not suspect worn steering joints.

 

[480bhp.com]

While were on the subject of geometery settings, what's the general starting point to work from for a road going track car (ie a track that's driven on the road :wink: )
reason i said starting point is each driver will prefer a different setting to the next one, but a common starting point can be useful.
I've got access to all the equipment required to get it how i want it, but due to logistic problems i can't get it all to the track, so i will need a set of figures to work from for the 1st trackday.

I've heard -2 degrees camber on the front and the rear is ok as standard at around -1.5 degrees (that's easily acheiveable with a set of camber bolts)
But toe settings i'm getting various claims, i read on the yozza site that the standard throphy had 1mm toe out at the front and 1mm toe in at the rear, can anyone confirm that these are per axle and not per wheel (same goes for the camber too)
Caster would be very awkward to alter so i'll assume for now that the standard settings are ok.

Any advise would be a good base to start from.

Chris