Possible New Trophy/Cup owner...

[thiscocks]

Hi,

Thought I'd sign up here to get some info from Trophy owners before I test drive some.

I currently own a Peugeot 106 Rallye 1.3 which I really like and recently thought I would never sell as it does almost everything that I want in a car(no I dont want comfort!)-steering feel, chassis balance and competition engine being the main plus points. However my parents have offered me some money to get a 'newer' car (for what reason I am unsure!) so have been mulling over possible replacements in the price range of Clio 172/182 and possibly the Trophy. I am not sure that I will indeed get a newer car yet.. (am I sad to want to keep the 106?!- most people I know say so)

I initially thought about a 172cup which I think would be a good newer successor to the rallye with it's relatively raw handling and nice weight reduction touches (any car with thin glass to save weight gets a thumbs up in my book!). I read it has an increased track over the ff172 which is interesting.

I test drove a ff172 to get a feel and I must say I was surprised the steering didnt feel too numb compared to the rallye and was pretty direct. I guess the cups will maybe feel even better. Ofcourse the engine felt like a rocket mid range in comparison to the 1.3!

Coming from the rallye I wont think the cup will be spartan inside but I am now thinking as I am getting a newer car then I might as well have some toys. The ff172/182 route is an option but I don't think they will feel 'special' enough for me after the rallye so I am thinking about the Trophy now. The knowledge that it is limited edition is a bonus and I also love the seats. Having read road tests on them I am also curious to see what the suspension is like (and whether it can keep a new 911 honest on certain roads-which Autocar said it could!). Ofcourse I have no doubt it would destroy the rallye pace-wise over a twisty road but I guess fun-wise it would be a bit behind. How much less fun will be the main issue for me.

Then there is the issue of maintenence costs. Although I am spending a bit on fixing things on the 106, the parts are cheap and pretty cheap to fit in general. I guess parts on the Clio are more expensive (eg. exhausts) and then there is the issue of the damper units which seem to like snapping springs?!

Can anyone either convince me to (possibly)save money and keep my 106 or convince me to buy a trophy?

Thanks for any information,

Tim

 

[is1]

Hi
As a starter, just to save you from unrealistic expectations, it won't keep a modern "911" honest however well you drive it! I don't like the "supercar slayer" type tags as they are daft and misleading.
What pretty much any hot Clio gives you is a step up from the boring bloated blunt hatches you get these days.
They are relatively light with a powerful normally aspirated engine. The standard brakes are fairly effective and the handling has been tweaked by people who clearly understand how a car should drive down a nice ribbon of road.

Whether it's expensive to maintain depends on what you end up buying and what needs doing. It can be VERY expensive (up to £500 for a damper refurb if it's had a bit of a life, same amount for cambelt at 5 years, general servicing and maintenance etc. plus any refurb work you want to do). Most people seem to want to stick with the Michelin tyres which are AT LEAST £100 per corner. BTW, not sure about your age but have you factored insurance? That's about to get a whole lot more interesting from the new year if reports are to be believed (average 40% hike). Road tax is £235 per year which is not exactly cheap. Fuel economy's not bad if you keep it below 5,000 rpm but where's the fun in that.

As it's a limited edition, you will pay a fair premium over something like a 172 Cup which, on balance, is probably the sort of thing you may want to have a look at. They have the Speedline Turini wheels, come in a nicer colour (subjective I know, but it is) and apparently, a 172 Cup was quicker round EVO magazine's test track at the Bedford Autodrome, if that sort of thing matters to you.

The Trophy is essentially a Cup with the dampers, seats and air con.
I was struggling to choose between the two and opted for the Trophy for one reason only - the air con, because I go to work in a suit!
Finally, if you are planning to modify it, I really woudn't bother with the Trophy as that would be missing the point.

 

[eljeffo64]

The Trophy is slick, direct and handles well but it won't show a new 911 anything on most roads (i have both so can comment first hand) - where the T shines is on pace versus cost, very little to compete for the money- plus its quite refined for a hot hatch and it's a ltd. edition. Maybe a 172 cup is as good, for less cash.....

I wont be selling either my 997 or my Trophy - love them both - almost the same amount!

 

[j333evo]

I used to own a red series 1 106Rallye reg ended in Pud so that's what it was called.

I had a genuine Peugeot Sport decat Group N exhaust system which was comically loud at high rpm under load with a small tailpipe so looked discreet, I loved it. Plus I had a NLA MOMO Corse steering wheel as per integrale EVO2s have as standard, great feeling wheel.

I also fitted a GTi tailgate spoiler & the foglights from an XSi as I smashed one of the blanks when a rabbit decided to commit suicide by jumping through one at speed on the A34. The genuine foglight switch was about £6 from dealer & sits in place of the blank on dashboard, lights & brackets from a breakers yard fitted instead of the blanks.

Anyway back to question, the Trophy is quicker, stops better & is more robust. Fun I think is unquantifiable on cars, fun can be shear speed, handling prowess, just the way it makes you feel to look at and drive it, but the Trophy is fun maybe a different fun from the 106. And if you can keep it very close to stock keep it & enjoy the fact in years to come it will be a sound little investment.

 

[Sir_Dave]

If you're coming from a 106 Rallye, just buy a 172 Cup. Bloody brilliant cars, & cost f*ck all these days.

Imho, the Trophy isnt worth the huge premium over other clio's, hence why i sold my mint Trophy, it just wasnt worth £4k more than a 172 cup. Its good, & worth trying, but not a sound investment imho. I have another Trophy now, but purely as it was cheap & i've been able to flog the good bits off it.

To the person who wanted aircon, it was an option on the 172 cup lol.

 

[thiscocks]

Cheers for the info. I did wonder if autocar made an overstatement about the trophys pace! Good to hear from another rallye owner. Maybe the Cup would be a better option for me then. Ill try both.

P.S. £235 tax in a hatchback!? Christ

 

[tallandy]

That point about the insurance hike I think is already starting to take effect. I thought i'd get a quote on our family waggon first: Octavia vRS Estate, currently paying £790 with 3 year NCB

I put all the details in with an extra years NCB so 4 years NCB and it came back at £1000 #-o

So another year of incident free driving and its best part of £200 more GREAT!

 

[Gordon]

I had a 1294cc Rallye from almost new, still have it. Also owned two rally prepared Rallye's and the ex girlfriend had one; so I know them quite well. I think I also gave a similar view on this topic before, have a look at old posts.

I like you thought about the 172 Cup, but didn't get around to it, before Trophy produced. I'm sure the Cup is good, but given the extra power over Rallye and still not having ABS makes it a twitchy proposition in the wet. Sharpen up your cadence braking technique. I chose the Trophy over the Cup in the end due to trick dampers, Recaro's (Cup seats awful), upgrade to 182 from 172 and motoring press reviews.

Compared to the Trophy the Rallye is a far more raw driving experience. I went back to the Rallye after six months and it immediately felt incredibly connected to tarmac due to the seating position; I was stationary! You sit lower and seating position superb, also as there is no power steering no connectivity is lost. The grunt isn't there, so you have to peddle it flat out all the time to make progress, but that's a lot of fun and very rewarding; possibly one of the most fun cars I've ever driven. The T eats ground far faster and you don't realise it as it's more refined, but due to the speeds being carried it keeps you on your toes. I didn't get used to T sufficiently before it was put into storage to know it like the Rallye. I was at stage with the Rallye that I could push it beyond the envelope and keep it the right side of hedge. You'd need to be going pretty quick to do that in the T, like 30-40 mph faster than in the Rallye at a guess.

One thing I was conscious of was the brakes on the T. The first time I really pressed the middle peddle hard I was rather surprised by how twitchy the rear was compared to the Rallye. The brakes of the T weren't as effective as Rallye given size and weight differences between the two cars. The T really felt loose at the rear and I was braking in a straight line, let alone approaching a nasty corner in the wet. Could have been because they were so effective from higher speed the rear was twitchy of course, but you'd hope springs/dampers would be there to supress that.

Much of these things you get used to quickly. Once you get your seating position set up you'll forget you initially feel like you're driving a 7.5 tonne truck with the steering wheel on your knees. Recaro's firmer than Rallye's Recaro's (OEM seats on Rallye were made by Recaro I was told). T also feels larger and more solid, because it is.

Passengers were beginning to tire/get scared in the Rallye as so raw, and it was dull on long journeys unless they were all B roads. I also wanted to get the motorway out the way in comfort then still enjoy the b roads on journeys, so T was excellent choice. Overtaking is also far easier and safer in the T. You can keep up with a lot of other cars, granted a 911 is probably a long shot, depends on driver and distance between corners. You also retain the knowledge you have a pretty special car, that people are aware of if they know what they are talking about.

Overall a different experience, but still not regretted; I do have luxury of owning both though. Would like to eventually restore Rallye back to mint.

Try to keep them both if you've got the space. you could always try the line that the Rallye's not going to be worth much money so not worth selling. Whichever you choose you're not really going to go too far wrong.

As for cost of ownership, the T is far higher. Petrol to start with, drinks it compared to Rallye, it is a 2.0 litre after all. Road tax also double, insurance probably double too, tyres also double (been a long time since I bought a Yokohama 539 though).

 

[keo]

I havent had a rallye (been thinking about buying one latley though) but i have had two 106 GTI's in the past. Imo the 106 is more fun than the trophy, but the trophy is a more modern equivalent a little bit comfier, its nice having the recaro's and being part of a pretty exclusive club i dont see many trophys but to be fair i cant remeber the last time i saw a rallye either

 

[trophy380]

I had two 106 GTI's before the T loved them both! But love the T more!

 

[Gman]

I'd love a original Rallye, trouble is the longer i leave it the harder it'll be to find a good one!!

I've had the Trophy and now i've got a 172 Cup, neither cars will disappoint you i'm sure, in my opinion they are both quite different.
If you're using it for mostly road use i'd go for the Trophy all day long, it rides the roads amazingly well giving hugh amounts of confidence, with the right pad/disc combo the brakes are pretty impressive as Gordon says though the back end can be quite lively sometimes under heavy braking.

The Cup is a lot more loose on the road, ultimately just as quick pace wise but a lot more dangerous in doing so. The brakes are one of the biggest differences, they are perfectly good enough for fast road driving but they do lock up very easily in wet/cold conditions, even in the summer on bouncy roads braking can be quite tricky if you're pushing on but nothing worse than your Rallye i wouldn't have imagined.
On Track is where i have been most impressed with the Cup, once the tyres have a good amount of heat in them the brakes are just awesome with locking up just a distant memory. Turn-in isn't quite as good as the Trophy is on track, but in my opinion the Cup is a lot more balanced than the trophy so it's very easy to compensate for this.

Any pics of the 106??

 

[thiscocks]

Thanks again for replies. Know what you mean about insurance. Last year I was paying £375 for the rallye and after a year of incident free driving its renewed at £500!!!! Bloody discrace. Can understand these people who dont insure cars (they dont give a shit about) when you get rewarded like this. Did a quote on a 172 (cup not specified- I guess I will need to mention this) and got back £850.. Perhaps it will go up even more on a cup as I heard they are pretty bad on the insurance...

Still thinking about it anyway, but at the same time don't want to sell the rallye! I wish I could keep both but unfortunatley I simply dont have anywhere to put another car at present.

Some pics!:



with s2 wheels on:




Cheers,
Tim

 

[Gman]

Absolutely love Rallye's, 106 S2's. 306 Rallye's but the S1 is proper cool!!

Cup insurance is stupid in my opinion, my trophy was about £450 two years ago, after that i paid about £415 for my R26 then i got the Cup and thats £550, been looking at renewal prices and the best so far has been £660, I'm 28 with 10yrs ncb and no points in a good area with the car being garaged!

Bet it's a hoot at cadwell, i took the cup there for the first time ever a few weeks back, brilliant place just a shame it was damp in the morning and freezing cold so grip levels weren't all that!

Gman

 

[marrow]

Lack of ABS is probably why the Cup is so expensive to insure?

 

[Gman]

Lack of ABS is probably why the Cup is so expensive to insure?

Indeed, over on the CS forum this time of year is known as cup culling season due to the amount that get crashed over the winter months.

A lot of track day specific insurance companies also have the 172cup on a list of cars they won't insure!

 

[thiscocks]

yeah the s1 suited cadwel quite well.

So the cup would be a fair bit more than the 172ff then? Ridiculous really, I doubt no ABS makes it that dangerous...

 

[trophy380]

My rally car has no ABS, it's not dangerous! Pretty much every car before the early 80's didn't have ABS! Most motorsports vehicles opt not to use it. The only difference is that you'll need to get a feel for the pedal if you're not use to driving without ABS. These days we're very spoilt with all these driver aids! ;o)

 

[Gman]

The cups don't have ESP either which could be the reason more get written off than normal 172's?!

 

[stormduck]

I think the problem lies with the difference in brake pedal feel. My old fiesta had fantastic feel to the brakes, you knew what was happening, just like the little 1litre 106 i had, superb! But moving on to the clio it's not as comprehensable. The brakes lock up easily in slippery conditions, and you don't really know that it's happened without the abs light flashing if your heading in a straight line. You get a judder coming back through the pedal, but nothing like the understanding of the pug. I think the ability of the brakes on the clio is superb, in the dry your eye balls can be forced out of there sockets (sort of :lol: ) but once again the manufacturers have over-servo'd the car for the benefit of the masses. Something that modern cars will be plagued with.

I think you have to ask yourself what you need/want out of a car before you can find a car that meets your needs. Rather than thinking of a car then trying to fit your needs around it! Btw, I adore my T!

Oh and one more thing. The reason why people have issues with a twitchy back end under braking is due to the soft damping on the rear. Fitting a set of koni adjustables with Mark Fish (of Harlow) springs, lowers the rear and brings the damping in line with the hard fronts, so the rear won't shoot up in the air when the front dives to the ground....like a dog on a tiled floor!

 

[eljeffo64]

I was led to believe that no ABS means an "even" brake balance - i.e. to much rear bias - hence the twitchy feel at the rear with non abs cars (e.g. 172 cup). While this is no way dangerous (like other non abs cars - learn to brake properly!) it can be a pita on the track and very difficult to change the set up (save for putting WD 40 on the rear discs before a session - joking!!)