197 Cup and Trophy?

[bc_seventy_six]

As posted before i'm about to buy a Trophy and have been trying to look ahead a year or two and see what the Trophy is likely to be worth and how the introduction of the 197 Cup or Trophy might affect its values. In the end i've ended up with more questions than answers and simply havent been able to predict what the future holds for Trophy values because i keep coming back to the same question - where is RenaultSport going with the 197?

The 197 seems to have had a mixed reception so far and i dont believe sales have been as good as expected. From what i've seen/heard/read its quite a different car from the current 182, on the plus side i've heard that its better built, more spacious, the Brembos are great, the 6 speed box is sweet, and it handles well, etc. On the negative side i've heard that its not as focussed anymore and has lost some of its raw edge, its too big, there isnt a great feeling of speed, the steering is too light, etc.

As there is no Cup option available at the moment i think a lot of potential buyers will hold out till this is launched, so what can RenaultSport do this time in Cup spec? Chassis and suspension changes are a sure thing i'd say, and maybe anthracite wheels - but this time i dont see Renault putting on a spoiler pack, certainly not at the rear because Renault engineers apparently knocked back the idea from marketing that it should have a rear spolier for aesthetic purposes basically because the engineers said it was unnecessary due to the diffuser working so well.

The other thing is i cant see where Renault can lose weight on the car this time round. Everything that was standard on the old full spec 182 (leather/alcantara, climate, xenons, auto lights/wipers, Cabasse stereo, etc) has pretty much been ripped out already and is now offered as an option on the 197. This is where the weight difference came in with the old FF 182 vs the Cup. We know that basic air con and ABS will likely be staying put too, so where can the weight in the 197 be removed from? I cant see Renault taking interior trim out or making it a two seater as i believe they want this new Clio to appear more refined that the old one - even in RS spec. I believe the generous standard spec on the old 182 was one of its selling points and probably drew some customers away from Mini Cooper S and Civic Type R's etc and now that Renault has opted to take the option list route i wonder if they have maybe shot themselves in the foot with regards to 182 FF vs Cup.

What about the possibilty of Cup tyres i.e almost running road spec race tyres - again i dont know if this would be feasible as it just might be too extreme for everyday use. Look at BMW with the road slicks it fitted to the M3 CSL, they had new owners sign a disclaimer saying they were aware that the tyres were pretty much useless in the wet and quite a lot of CSLs now being offered for sale have standard road tyres on them instead of the originals.

So i'm thinking that a 197 cup might have suspension changes, front splitter, anthracite wheels, and possibly Recaros? And maybe a limited slip diff - although i'm not sure if the car would definitely benefit from it. Will these changes be enough to produce a car that can stand up to the previous Cup incarnations? I guess only time will tell.

I dont see Renault extracting more power from the engine or moving away from a normally aspirated engine as their whole ethos in recent years has revolved around chassis tuning and having the car set up right. Would they possibly speak to Sachs again about some trick suspension for the Cup - i doubt it as i reckon it would be too expensive.

Which leads us on to the possibility of a 197 Trophy - how could it move the game on from a 197 Cup? Sachs suspension, a unique colour again (red maybe?) and Recaro's (same as available in the 197 and 197 Cup or something different - who knows) seem a safe bet. I'd just like to think that they can get it right, honour the Trophy name and have a car thats as good if not better than the old one.

I'm going to stop typing as i think i could be rambling Just thought i'd stick my thoughts down and see what other enthusuasts though i.e. if people wanted to share their thoughs or if people agreed/disagreed or just wanted to shoot me down in flames.

I guess the bottom line is that as a potential 197 Cup or Trophy buyer in the future i am concerned with where Renault is going with the 197. When the Cup is inevitivably released will it truly be as good or better than the old one or will we have another manufacturer who has ended up with a diluted product (like Peugeot of late). I truly hope not as RenaultSport have been at the top of their game lately.

Cheers

BC

 

[Cue]

there won't be a trophy version but a cup version is probable. Either way there will, at some point in time, be a car that is better than all it's predicesors - williams / Trophy etc.

If you're in the mkt for a car now, your best option is the trophy. In 2/3 years it maybe something else, having driven the 197 hard for a few laps of Cadwell I'm happy tat i have the trophy

the 197 is a good car though and any possible improvements the Cup version may have, may make it a good option over a the trophy if your looking for the best hot hatch. The Title is still the Trophy's at the mo............ Renault know this, hense why the trophy wasn't heavily marketed and only sold in a very limited number (also cost 'em a bit to make). If they'd have sold the trophy as a normal 182 they wouldn't have sold any 197's.

 

[George K]

Your problem is that the 197 has gained a lot of weight, which as you quite correctly point out will be difficult to shed in production form. They have also met the general market expectations of more refinement for everyday use and as the car is bigger, have in fact almost changed market segment. The drawback is that to retain comparable performance they have a more peaky engine, with shorter gearing even in 6th, thus not helping motorway use.

I don't think the 197 and Trophy will ever be truly comparable. The solution may be that the new Twingo will have a sporting derivative (Autocar had a very tasty photgraph - possibly from the Paris show) which could be much closer to the agility and good power to weight ratio of the 182.

 

[FunkyMunky]

whoa mega post there fella!! :wink:

However, a lot of what you say is what i was considering when i was looking at 182's, will the 197 come along and move the ball game along, will it affect resale values etc

In the end, i did some research on the Trophy, had a good look round and after driving one was hooked and bought it on the spot. Yeah I know it's a true case of letting my heart rule my head, but that was six months ago and I'm still thinking it was one of the best decisions I made.

The best thing i can really say is take a good drive of both vehicles, that'll immediately give you an idea of what they are like and what you like too as there are many posts on different forums comparing the two cars, but what i like isn't necessarily what you'll like.

Trophy prices are now hovering at just about £11000 ish, and that still represents a bargain in my opinion! Especially when reading on cliosport this morning that Trophy suspension is about £3440 to buy and the Recaro's are worth £1300!

I've driven the two and don't regret buying the Trophy, but at the same time I recognise that the 197 has some nice improvements (at the expense of a few extra pounds).

Whereabouts are you located?

 

[oliie]

I can't believe you took the time to write so much over such a simple subject!

Do you want a car now, or not?

Do you want a new car, or a used car?

Do you want to pay £15k for a car in a year or £10k?

It's not rocket science!

That's like putting off buying a mobile phone/computer because there will be a new model in x months/years.

If you continue deliberating you'll end up without a car at all as there will be a planned replacement for the 197 Cup when you get to it!

Buy the Trophy now, and if you like the 197 Cup when it comes out just trade up. Wow, I've solved your 10 page problem in one sentence...

O.

 

[duffer987]

The only way to ensure your car won't be superceded by a different 'special' edition or the like is to buy an end of line spare parts bin limited edition like the Trophy :wink:
Look what Renault do with the RS Megane, 3 'special editions' in a year. Buy (or don't buy) a car in the here and now cause you like it (or don't like), job done

 

[Steve]

Good post there, you've sort of answered your own questions though, looks like you've done your research, what car are you coming from (if it's relevant)? The reason I ask is that the age of the Trophy was completely irrelevant to me, I had an 18 year old 205 GTi before the Trophy and wasn't even looking to replace it, I just went for a test drive and fell in love with it, and that was before I had the chance to drive it hard, where the infamous dampers do their best work, the point is, it was a new car that was telling me what was going on at the wheels and reacted to every input with poise and precision, while feeling solid and fast (many newer cars even though faster than older cars actually feel slower). The overall package of being a new car with a warranty and having exclusivity were all bonuses.

As Gareth says, you can hear all the opinions in the world and it won't mean dick compared to taking both cars for a test drive, but I think after you've done this, your heart and your head will be saying 'Trophy'.

 

[bc_seventy_six]

Thanks for the feedback folks - some good input there - much appreciated, though it seems Ollie in particular has misread my rambling post - in the first paragraph i would say i made my intentions clear.

I am definitely buying a Trophy.

But in doing this i got to thinking about resale values, at the moment i see the Trophy as a fairly good buy - something that should still be in demand and command a decent price if and when the time comes to sell it. Then i got to thinking about whether the introduction of a 197 Cup or Trophy would see 182 Trophy prices taking a big dip. But in thinking about this i just cant see where Renault are going with the 197 and dont know if you'll ever be able to compare the two (and from what people have said above it looks like the Trophy will stand on its own for a while yet).

The post was intended as a 'what lies ahead for the future of RenaultSport models?' topic rather than another 'Trophy vs 197' thread.

I just thought i'd share my ramblings with like minded people on here and get some input rather than with workmates or mates down the pub who might end up nodding off or looking at me strangely as i ramble on about diffusers and remote reservoir dampers!

Cheers

BC

 

[FunkyMunky]

in all honesty though, most of use don't buy Renault's for the way they hold their value. it's not what you'd call one of their strength's! same goes for build quality. but then you're not paying german prices either and without doubt there isnt much that offers as much fun for your money

 

[oliie]

Thanks for the feedback folks - some good input there - much appreciated, though it seems Oliie[/i] in particular has misread my rambling post - in the first paragraph i would say i made my intentions clear.

I am definitely buying a Trophy.

Sorry I did miss this!!! Too much to read through...

Whatever happens, the loss thanks to a replacement model will never really be that much to worry about.

Let's say worst case scenario is that you lose 50% in 3 years (i.e. average). This only equates to circa £6.5k loss.

If you buy a 330i and lose 50% you'd be circa £14k out of pocket, more than 100% the loss of the Trophy as a % of £.

The joys of a small cheap(ish) car..

O.

 

[g40steve]

In the words of that advert 'just do it :!: '

 

[Steve]

If you buy a 330i and lose 50% you'd be circa £14k out of pocket

Speaking from experience there Ols? :wink:

 

[oliie]

If you buy a 330i and lose 50% you'd be circa £14k out of pocket

Speaking from experience there Ols? :wink:

Lol.. don't go there!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Wait until I tell you about buying a car in Singapore... now that was a painful experience!

O.

 

[chunktrophy]

i wouldnt worry about it mate, renaults lose money in general, no sorry Cars lose money in general.

i lost 5k in 3 years on my v6 that i expected to only lose a couple of grand on.

good point about the megane too, 3 models in the past year!! new versions of cars come out all the time but as i am very happy with the trophy i wont consider another car until that or my circumstances change.

 

[Cue]

If you buy a 330i and lose 50% you'd be circa £14k out of pocket

Speaking from experience there Ols? :wink:

Lol.. don't go there!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Wait until I tell you about buying a car in Singapore... now that was a painful experience!

O.

feck me i lost 20k in 2 years on my 330CI !!!!!!!!!. adding 110k to a new car tends to do that though

 

[duffer987]

feck me i lost 20k in 2 years on my 330CI !!!!!!!!!. adding 110k to a new car tends to do that though

110,000 miles in how many years?! :shock: That Halifax - Glasgow commute musta been a beotch :wink:

 

[iain_c]

im think the 197 is a better overall car than the out going cars.
Would i have 1 ? no but never say never
Because of the price and the fact it is less raw.

 

[Steve]

Better than a FF 182 maybe, not better than a Trophy though, no way. Not in terms of driving pleasure or performance anyway, I suppose it has got a bigger boot.

I wonder what the first car ever to be lighter than it's predecessor will be? Hang on, it's happened - the Jaguar XK. and the new TT. Now do it with hatches you muppets.

 

[oliie]

im think the 197 is a better overall car than the out going cars.

Have you driven both a Trophy and a 197?

O.

 

[cardealer]

I think life's too short to read all that. In summary, I would generally pay £1000 more for a 182 FF Cupped with Recaros, and sell almost straight away - they will continue to be a sought after car. (Although they have become very colour specific now) The Trophy is and will continue to be one of the slowest depreciating cars in it's class and nice ones will become rarer. The solid red will always polish up well too. There will always be something eventually that will come along, maybe that will be a 197 Cup, if it does think about one of those then, but I wouldn't bother second guessing the future. Every single customer who has bought a Trophy from me has loved it. Also huge positive opinion from people here, how much more recommendation could anyone want?