damn! close but no cigarhoolio said:shiftspark said:hoolio said:
Thought I had 1st pic being nearest :?:
But i've been on the forum a month longer :wink:
Trophy #40 Crash
- Thread starter 480bhp.com
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #43
BenG said:
Hi Ben, nothing with those bit's, as they were never in the car when i got it
i just use a trolly jack and breaker bar/torque wrench
Chris
- Thread starter
- #45
Quick update :wink:
Fitted the resistors today to fool the ecu (airbags) no problems there, still got too mount a few switches and the clocks yet, but maybe for Bedford they'll just be tie wrapped in place, i'm not sure i've got enough spare time to make a small dash.
Also spoke to Mark Fish today, so thats a set of new revalved Konis on the way for the rear along with a set of springs, Has anyone else given the revalved damper ago? (cost about £50 a damper more, but Mark recommends them)
Also spoke to Ben at BG too, so the front dampers are going there tomorrow for a rebuild and unpining, i had originally planned too unpin them myself, but after seeing the bodge a previous owner had done, i decided to leave it too BG while there being refurb'd.
Chris
Fitted the resistors today to fool the ecu (airbags) no problems there, still got too mount a few switches and the clocks yet, but maybe for Bedford they'll just be tie wrapped in place, i'm not sure i've got enough spare time to make a small dash.
Also spoke to Mark Fish today, so thats a set of new revalved Konis on the way for the rear along with a set of springs, Has anyone else given the revalved damper ago? (cost about £50 a damper more, but Mark recommends them)
Also spoke to Ben at BG too, so the front dampers are going there tomorrow for a rebuild and unpining, i had originally planned too unpin them myself, but after seeing the bodge a previous owner had done, i decided to leave it too BG while there being refurb'd.
Chris
BenG
ClioTrophy Moderator
What exactly does Mark do to the rear dampers ?
I have the Koni's fitted but they have not been re valved. When I get round to buying the Mark Fish springs I can compensate for the extra rebound rate of the springs by adding more rebound damping.
- Thread starter
- #47
Hi Ben, Mark doesn't actually do the revalving, he sends the dampers away to be done. I'm Sure he feels the dampers need revalving to suit the cars capabilities. For the sake of £100 the pair i decided to get them done before he send them, it might be worth calling Mark if you want any details.
Chris
Chris
I think George k mentioned about having them revalved a while back said he new who did them may be worth asking him ben.
BenG
ClioTrophy Moderator
Yeah I rememeber George telling me that there are a few specialists who will re valve the dampers, I just dont understand the changes in the characteristics that re valving will make, They can be re valved for change in compression and/or rebound cant they ? and due the the fact there rebound adjustable they must be re valved for compression, but how do I know how stiff/soft they should be ? and if this is the case, why not buy koni Red's as they are compression 'and' rebound adjustable.
Im confused... :?
Im confused... :?
- Thread starter
- #50
Ben the adjustment in a damper has a limited range, to make it easier to understand i'll work on scale, but this isn't how they do it, but it will help you understand the differences.
Imagine damping can be a number from 1-100
now no damper can accomodate every number between 1 and a 100 so they are valved to work within a range, not every car needs the same damping.
Say a clio would need a damper that had a range between 50-70
Your standard koni adjustable could say be 40-60 or 70-90, so this is why you would have them revalved so that they work within the range that suits your car.
I'm sure George could give you a more technical and precise explanation but this should help you understand how they can be different.
Btw this is not how they are rated though.
hopefully this helps you understand why they would need valving to suit a car.
There is also how much a difference a click makes, on some dampers the difference is huge, while on others it's pretty close.
Revalving dampers is something i had to have done with each new kitcar build, mainly due to most dampers being aimed at heavy cars, and we found quite often that even on the lowest setting it could still be too hard for our use.
you'd be surprised how mis matched some of the dampers are.
i would imagine as part of the revalving Mark is doing it also involves having them dyno'd too.
Chris
Imagine damping can be a number from 1-100
now no damper can accomodate every number between 1 and a 100 so they are valved to work within a range, not every car needs the same damping.
Say a clio would need a damper that had a range between 50-70
Your standard koni adjustable could say be 40-60 or 70-90, so this is why you would have them revalved so that they work within the range that suits your car.
I'm sure George could give you a more technical and precise explanation but this should help you understand how they can be different.
Btw this is not how they are rated though.
hopefully this helps you understand why they would need valving to suit a car.
There is also how much a difference a click makes, on some dampers the difference is huge, while on others it's pretty close.
Revalving dampers is something i had to have done with each new kitcar build, mainly due to most dampers being aimed at heavy cars, and we found quite often that even on the lowest setting it could still be too hard for our use.
you'd be surprised how mis matched some of the dampers are.
i would imagine as part of the revalving Mark is doing it also involves having them dyno'd too.
Chris
Mark Fish originally worked with 7MAT to revalve the koni's to match the sachs front dampers as they didn't go as firm as he would like. Mine (revalved by MF) go both firm enough and soft enough for road use in my opinion.
I took my car to Bedford on Friday but as I was wearing out George K's old hillclimb tyres it was difficult for me to feel how well they matched the fronts. The front tyres were overheating and losing grip very quickly. Overall though I'm very impressed
I took my car to Bedford on Friday but as I was wearing out George K's old hillclimb tyres it was difficult for me to feel how well they matched the fronts. The front tyres were overheating and losing grip very quickly. Overall though I'm very impressed
Damper Valving
Just a few notes – in view of past comments I will try to keep it short.
Dampers are not springs, basically they control the rate of movement, particularly in roll – an undamped car will bounce like a pogo stick. However it is possible for really stiff dampers to give the effect of stiffer springs (e.g where the rules do not allow springs to be changed).
Dampers normally have different degrees of stiffness in bump and rebound. Generally stiffer in rebound makes for greater stability. Typically front rebound to bump ratio will be in the range 1.5 – 2.0 and for the rear 1.5 – 2.5.
Road type Konis only adjust for rebound – but the basic valves can be changed for both bump and rebound. Koni have three motorsport service engineers in the UK who can do this and are very helpful.
480bhp’s explanation of the adjustment range is very good.
Mark Fish will probably have revalved the Konis so as to match the front Sachs, rather than the dampers that Koni would supply for the front. He also may have changed the stiffness of the rear springs – and so have compensated for this as well.
The adjustment range is intended to cater for, starting at the softest, day to day driving on the road, wet conditions, then dry conditions on road tyres, track tyres or slicks – temperature and different tyre compounds will also affect the requirements. Because the hill climbs that I do mean that we compete on what amount to cold tyres, I need a softer setting than for track work – I found the Trophy’s standard front setting to be ideal – although I have seen a very well driven Trophy at Castle Coombe and it then looks soft, albeit stable. The racers have much stiffer springs (5 times at least) and so will need very different damper settings.
It is possible to vary the adjustment front/ rear to change the characteristics and balance of the car for different circuits.
Just a few notes – in view of past comments I will try to keep it short.
Dampers are not springs, basically they control the rate of movement, particularly in roll – an undamped car will bounce like a pogo stick. However it is possible for really stiff dampers to give the effect of stiffer springs (e.g where the rules do not allow springs to be changed).
Dampers normally have different degrees of stiffness in bump and rebound. Generally stiffer in rebound makes for greater stability. Typically front rebound to bump ratio will be in the range 1.5 – 2.0 and for the rear 1.5 – 2.5.
Road type Konis only adjust for rebound – but the basic valves can be changed for both bump and rebound. Koni have three motorsport service engineers in the UK who can do this and are very helpful.
480bhp’s explanation of the adjustment range is very good.
Mark Fish will probably have revalved the Konis so as to match the front Sachs, rather than the dampers that Koni would supply for the front. He also may have changed the stiffness of the rear springs – and so have compensated for this as well.
The adjustment range is intended to cater for, starting at the softest, day to day driving on the road, wet conditions, then dry conditions on road tyres, track tyres or slicks – temperature and different tyre compounds will also affect the requirements. Because the hill climbs that I do mean that we compete on what amount to cold tyres, I need a softer setting than for track work – I found the Trophy’s standard front setting to be ideal – although I have seen a very well driven Trophy at Castle Coombe and it then looks soft, albeit stable. The racers have much stiffer springs (5 times at least) and so will need very different damper settings.
It is possible to vary the adjustment front/ rear to change the characteristics and balance of the car for different circuits.
BenG
ClioTrophy Moderator
It all makes sense now .
I understood that re valving was to change the characteristics of the damper in terms of either rebound/bump, I was unaware that the adjustment on dampers was throughout a 'particular' range, I thought it was throughout the 'whole' range. Thats why I assumed that the koni's were revalved for change in bump, then I thought well why not fit koni reds as they have both bump and rebound adjustment. :? On well, got to learn somehow. Its all become clear now, Thanks.
. I understood that re valving was to change the characteristics of the damper in terms of either rebound/bump, I was unaware that the adjustment on dampers was throughout a 'particular' range, I thought it was throughout the 'whole' range. Thats why I assumed that the koni's were revalved for change in bump, then I thought well why not fit koni reds as they have both bump and rebound adjustment. :? On well, got to learn somehow. Its all become clear now, Thanks.
Very true as I found out last weekend ! 180 degree spin followed by back wards at 30 mph onto the grass near to the banking on the 1st corner of the first practice runGeorge K said:
Cold tyres on a not too warm track , I dropped my rear tyres down to 24 psi and even in the very warm afternoon these were only just warm to the touch....great fun though :lol:
Great thread and will be good to follow. Would love to see some pics.
Out of interest, what kit cars have you had previously? I have a home-built Westfield (since December 07). Pm me if you don't want to spam this thread with it.
Out of interest, what kit cars have you had previously? I have a home-built Westfield (since December 07). Pm me if you don't want to spam this thread with it.
Colin - Shiftspark.
These cold tyres are a real problem. The DC5 was a total nightmare on cold tyres and was very loose at the back, even under power. Seem to have made progress (2.8 secs in 52 - quicker than the T on road tyres) by going softer at the rear** and running quite a lot more rear toe-in - 0.30' now. Admittedly that is only part of the package - have gone to AST coil over (bespoke set up) so as to get away from stupidly rising rate springs.
** rather at variance with what the preceding damper discussion is about, which is stiffer rear damping!! Horses for courses I guess?
These cold tyres are a real problem. The DC5 was a total nightmare on cold tyres and was very loose at the back, even under power. Seem to have made progress (2.8 secs in 52 - quicker than the T on road tyres) by going softer at the rear** and running quite a lot more rear toe-in - 0.30' now. Admittedly that is only part of the package - have gone to AST coil over (bespoke set up) so as to get away from stupidly rising rate springs.
** rather at variance with what the preceding damper discussion is about, which is stiffer rear damping!! Horses for courses I guess?
I had Koni dampers and uprated springs fitted by MF shortly after 7MAT had his done. I haven't had mine revalved as I thought the only reason for having this done is because the hardest setting for the Konis cannot match the hardest setting for the fronts. I Know Matt preferes his ride very very stiff, especially on track. I on the otherhand don't do much tracking at all and prefer the oem settings for road use.
My prefered settings are 20 clicks from soft for the fronts and 450" from soft for the rear. You could call that oem really. I've tried harder settings but I prefer the standard settings for road use. I would like to try a harder setting on track but not by too much. Maybe the fronts up by 5 or 10 more clicks and around 90" to 180" more for the rear. I believe the konis are good if going on track... and if you like your ride really stiff, then have them re-valved so your able to match them to your super stiff front settings.
So basically it's worth having them re-valved if you're going to be cranking the fronts right up.
Atleast that was my impression about re-valving before reading this thread.
My prefered settings are 20 clicks from soft for the fronts and 450" from soft for the rear. You could call that oem really. I've tried harder settings but I prefer the standard settings for road use. I would like to try a harder setting on track but not by too much. Maybe the fronts up by 5 or 10 more clicks and around 90" to 180" more for the rear. I believe the konis are good if going on track... and if you like your ride really stiff, then have them re-valved so your able to match them to your super stiff front settings.
So basically it's worth having them re-valved if you're going to be cranking the fronts right up.
Atleast that was my impression about re-valving before reading this thread.
I too have my fronts at 20 and rear koni fully soft for road use but for the track I have the koni full hard and no more than 30 clicks on the front as this make's it to hard on the front
I have only done 1 sprint so far this year and had the front at 30 and rear half way as it needs to be softer to get some heat into the tyres as the runs are less than 1 mile at best.
I have only done 1 sprint so far this year and had the front at 30 and rear half way as it needs to be softer to get some heat into the tyres as the runs are less than 1 mile at best.
BenG
ClioTrophy Moderator
When you say fully soft do you mean maximum rebound damping (slow rebound) ? When I increase the rebound damping on the Koni's the rear end hardly springs back up. I have them set at half/full turn back from minimum rebound damping.