Camber settings and tracking geometry

[JD68]

Many thanks to Olis for recommending Aurok for my geometry check. Although using the ‘old fashioned’ method of string and gauges, they confirmed my suspicions of incorrect tracking and mismatched camber angles. The camber was obviously slightly out from the factory but the tracking was made worse when adjusted by a tyre fitting company using laser alignment. They had set toe-out rather than toe-in, which gave very poor steering response. All is now fine and the Trophy handling even better than when new.

When at the main dealer for service I asked about the geometry settings and was given two completely different answers. The computer at the tyre depot had a third set. Does anybody know what the factory settings should be and whether the Trophy has the same geometry as the 182 Cup? Even that question elicited two answers!

I have read through the (very detailed) threads from Neophyte, Olis and George K and am still not sure of the advantages of toe-out or toe-in for the front tracking. Jules at Aurok likes to run some toe-out at the rear but reckons it is generally to lively for road use. Is it the opposite for the fronts? Since setting mine to par (from toe-out) it feels much better but I don’t know how it came from the factory. I was certainly happy when the car was new until something knocked the steering wheel out of true – hence the initial laser check.

Will hope to find out how good it is on 21st August and looking forward to meeting some fellow owners!

JD

 

[George K]

The general conscensus is is that the Clio should run a small amount of toe-out at the front - iirc the factory recommend about 17' - mine came with 10' and does not have any stability or turn-in problems - I have replicated that (using string and gauges!) even with 2 degrees negative camber at the front. There are complex arguments as to what effect the scrub radius (the actual offset at ground level) and ackermann have on toe-in/out, but certainly toe-out seems to be favourite. (There is a lot of discussion on some US sites for autocross/autotest cars) .On another FWD car I had poor and inconsistent steering response and thought that I had cured it by going from 20' toe-in to 40' toe-in, a bit extreme I know, but if it worked.., later I found that it was even better at parallel so you can see that there is no consistent answer. It also varies from tyre to tyre, as the type of construction will affect the self-aligning torque characteristics. Sorry if this sounds a bit like a politician hedging all bets, but apart from Yozzasport who favours a small amount of toe-in, most other go for toe-out.

At the rear the brave racers prefer a tad of toe-out (10-20'), as it improves turn-in, but all admit that it can bring some nasty surprises (as per Jules) - for general use the standard setting of some toe-in seems sensible. I think that previously I have quoted the base-line settings for the Challenge racing cars - if not I can look them up at the weekend.

 

[OliS]

Glad to have been of help JD, and to hear that your Trophy is handling better than new!

 

[Neophyte]

Will hope to find out how good it is on 21st August and looking forward to meeting some fellow owners! JD

An excellent plan. Must get my booking sorted out

 

[oliie]

I am thinking to give Aurok a call to check my alignment etc. in preperation for the trip to the Nurburgring.

Do I need to be clued up and provide guidance as to correct camber/toe in/out setting etc. or do you think it is safe to let them 'work their magic' on the set up?

Also is the car adjustable to the extent of adjusting all these parameters without any additional gear such as camber plates etc?

I am also looking for guide prices to set up... is £150 a fair call?

Cheers for the info everyone

O.

 

[cardealer]

I know I pick up my cars second hand but have to say that even with the correct tyre pressures, some 182 Cup Suspension (and some Trophys too) cars are all over the place, and sometimes kick-back more than others on hard lock low speeds. There's also a commonality amongst 182 of all descriptions of misaligned steering wheels. I suspect that these cars come out of the factory with less than perfect geometry. If I was keeping one for myself, I would have it set up properly to ensure a) minimal tyre wear, and b) proper enjoyment of the car as it was designed and c) as a compulsive obsessive - a straight steering wheel

 

[Steve]

Is there a place between Brighton and Bournemouth that deals with suspension? I would quite like to get the geometry checked on the way to Verwood tomorrow.

Ever since knocking the front wheel, I've been suspicious that I might have upset my tracking. I sometimes experience quite violent torque steer which I didn't at first, it feels like the front wheels following the camber of the road and can feel like you're fighting to keep the car straight out of junctions etc.

Anyone else experience this? I have to say, it never does it on a perfectly flat road, you can floor it with your hands off the wheel and it's straight as an arrow.

 

[DomB]

I had my tracking checked when my front tyres were replaced two weeks ago - the toe and camber were all over the place and not the same on both sides front or back.

I admit, these guys are not specialists but they did have all of the laser alignment gear and showed me the read out on the computer. They reckoned that the rear camber and toe cant be adjusted (i know no better!) and only the front toe can be adjusted. This is either wrong, or the car came out of the factory sideways to begin with.

Needless to say that I didnt get much done by them, but it did leave me thinking that my car must be crabbing around the road! If anyone has definative answers on what the car should be from the factory I would be pleased to hear about it.....

 

[FunkyMunky]

Is there a place between Brighton and Bournemouth that deals with suspension? I would quite like to get the geometry checked on the way to Verwood tomorrow.

Ever since knocking the front wheel, I've been suspicious that I might have upset my tracking. I sometimes experience quite violent torque steer which I didn't at first, it feels like the front wheels following the camber of the road and can feel like you're fighting to keep the car straight out of junctions etc.

Anyone else experience this? I have to say, it never does it on a perfectly flat road, you can floor it with your hands off the wheel and it's straight as an arrow.

I experience the same Steve and my car is booked into Northampton Motorsport for a week tomorrow. I havent knocked against any kerbs but have hit some vicious potholes so taking the precaution of getting it all checked and changed as necessary. In particular I know what you mean about the at times vicious torque steer

 

[pacey]

Ever since knocking the front wheel, I've been suspicious that I might have upset my tracking. I sometimes experience quite violent torque steer which I didn't at first, it feels like the front wheels following the camber of the road and can feel like you're fighting to keep the car straight out of junctions etc.

I only found mine doing this when the front tyres were worn out ,new tyres corrected it.

 

[OliS]

Do I need to be clued up and provide guidance as to correct camber/toe in/out setting etc. or do you think it is safe to let them 'work their magic' on the set up?

Also is the car adjustable to the extent of adjusting all these parameters without any additional gear such as camber plates etc?

I am also looking for guide prices to set up... is £150 a fair call?

I pretty much just left them to do their stuff, gave suggestions about how I wanted the car to handle and what other people had suggested to me about front camber settings (ie. -2 degrees on the fronts). If you search through the old posts on this subject I am sure you will be abel to find some more detailled information posted by George K, he's probably the best person to advise on settings.

Apparently you can adjust the front camber on the Trophy through adjusting the std camber bolts, the rears have to be moved into line using shims, as my rear camber matched, I left mine alone.

I paid £110 cash in hand for my set up, so £150 is a good ball-park figure.

Is there a place between Brighton and Bournemouth that deals with suspension? I would quite like to get the geometry checked on the way to Verwood tomorrow.

I believe donkey on this forum runs the Racecardoctor in Lewes, I know it's the wrong direction along the south coast, but if you want the job done properly, he'll probably be a good person to get in contact with.

 

[Steve]

Cheers Oli, you're a star, Lewes is about 10 mins drive from my work, I'll speak to donkey(!) then.

 

[OliS]

8)